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Hal Moore a Soldier a Leader - Today's episode features historian Mike Guardia. Co-host Josh Mantz said to Pete A Turner, following his episode of BIDS, I'd love to talk to Mike Guardia about his Hal Moore book...so Pete does what he always does. He booked Mike so that Josh could sit in on this conversation.
Hal Moore was an icon in leadership. His time in battle at La-Drang in Vietnam was captured in the book/movie, We Were Soldiers Once and Young, by Hal and Joe Galloway (who will appear on an upcoming episode of BIDS). Mike realized that nobody had written a comprehensive biography of LTG Moore...so, like a great officer Mike dove in and changed everything. Mike's book is A Soldier Once and Always, be sure to get it on Amazon. Haiku Hal, a soldier once He led hard men in hard wars Let's do one more thing Similar episodes: Josh Mantz Q and Joe Sav Ed Beakley |
Transcriptions
Jon Leon Guerrero 0:00
Hey, this is john Leon Guerrero. Our guest today is Mike guardia. He's an author, a military historian and a veteran of the United States Army having served six years on active duty as an armor officer. He's been nominated twice for the army historical foundations distinguished Book Award as an active member in the military writer Society of America. He's the author of How more a soldier once and always that's the biography that chronicled the life of Lieutenant General Harold G. Moore, who was the subject of the film We Were Soldiers starring Mel Gibson.
Hey, this is john Leon Guerrero. Our guest today is Mike guardia. He's an author, a military historian and a veteran of the United States Army having served six years on active duty as an armor officer. He's been nominated twice for the army historical foundations distinguished Book Award as an active member in the military writer Society of America. He's the author of How more a soldier once and always that's the biography that chronicled the life of Lieutenant General Harold G. Moore, who was the subject of the film We Were Soldiers starring Mel Gibson.
Jon Leon Guerrero 0:00
Hey, this is john Leon Guerrero. Our guest today is Mike guardia. He's an author, a military historian and a veteran of the United States Army having served six years on active duty as an armor officer. He's been nominated twice for the army historical foundations distinguished Book Award as an active member in the military writer Society of America. He's the author of How more a soldier once and always that's the biography that chronicled the life of Lieutenant General Harold G. Moore, who was the subject of the film We Were Soldiers starring Mel Gibson. Mike has spoken at the US Special Operations Command, the International spy Museum, and the george bush 41 Presidential Library. His works been reviewed in The Washington Times the military review, Vietnam magazine, the Kanada report, defense web, South Africa and soldier magazine UK. Today he speaks on the breakdown show we're delighted to have him Please enjoy our our special guest, Mike guardia millions rock productions This is Jay Mohr
Unknown Speaker 1:08
and this is Jordan, Hans's, director from the
Unknown Speaker 1:11
Navy Sebastian youngsters Rick Marotta,
Unknown Speaker 1:13
Stewart Copeland. Baxter Gabby Reese is Rob belly This is Johnny Andre and this is Pete a Turner.
Mike Guardia 1:23
Hi, everyone, this is Mike Guardia, author of Hal Moore a soldier once and always and you are listening to the break it down show.
Niko Leon Guerrero 1:32
And now the break it down show with john Leon Guerrero and Pete a Turner.
Pete Turner 1:38
Yeah, this is great. We've got Mike on the line with us. And then Josh monsters come back at this time as a co host. So it's interesting to have, Mike, Josh and myself all army guys talking each of us creating in our own specific way, you know, post transition. So thanks, fellas for coming on. And, Mike, I guess the reason why we invited you was when we had john on the show, we talked about how Moore's leadership and that inevitably leads over to you because you're sort of the holder of the how more leadership principle thing was that something by design, I know you saw a movie and were inspired by the We Were Soldiers once in young, but has this been by designed to kind of grab this story and hold on to it?
Mike Guardia 2:21
Absolutely, Brother, you know, it was about seven years or so after the films and release that I read the book, we were soldiers once in young and also read the follow up book, we are soldiers still. And that was determined to learn as much about how more as I could. And I figured at that point in time, somebody had to with jumped on a biography of how more I mean, just given how popular he was throughout the army, and really throughout American pop culture. And I was surprised to learn that no one had yet written anything about it. So I thought to myself, young, idealistic Second Lieutenant that I was at the time that really wanted to get a book out there and figure that story of how more need to be told beyond what he did in the valley. And more to the point if I if I had enough information available, to try and get a book out there on his leadership principle, so that in one way or another by design was really what I set out to do from the beginning. Right.
Josh Mantz 3:26
You know, my this is Josh, my first exposure to how more was actually live at West Point when I was a cadet. And, you know, it's one of those talks. He's He's such a riveting speaker, that you just always remember those words, right? And it was actually during the release of We Were Soldiers the movie, they secretly previewed it at West Point for the Corps cadets, which is pretty awesome. But I'm kind of wondering, is there any particular leadership lessons that stuck with you? Or maybe some new ones that you uncovered, as you spend so much time with him?
Mike Guardia 4:00
Absolutely, absolutely. You know, there were so many good pieces of wisdom that he put down on paper and so many great things that you told me, if I can probably narrow it down to a, I can probably narrow it down to a top five list of the things that really stuck with me to folks. And the first one is probably one I think everyone's the most familiar with, it's the principle of three strikes, and you're not out, there seems to be a negative connotation these days, with the concept of failure. And what I think a lot of people don't realize both in and out of the military is that that failure isn't something you should be afraid of, it should be something that you use as an opportunity to grow. I heard in another context, something that stuck with me ever since. And I think it goes hand in hand with the principle of three strikes and you're out, fail early, fail often and fail forward. You know, fail early, because that's how you learn from your mistakes fail on. So you know how to refine your technique, refine your craft, fail forward, by learning from your mistakes and taking them with three strikes, and you're never out. Because there's always one more thing that you can do to influence any situation in your favor, know, there's always something and it's probably something that you haven't thought of yet that can really pay dividends, at some point down the line. And the second thing that he said, that really stuck with me, in order to be a leader, you have to be a lifelong learner. You know, there tends to be, I think, a trend once you've been in a particular line of work for too long. And I really think this is human nature when you think about it, but it tends to be a degree of complacency. where you say, Okay, well, I've been doing this for a while this ain't my first rodeo, I think I know, generally enough to keep doing what I'm doing and keep producing good results. But you always have to be in the mindset, hey, I need to keep on learning and I need to work, I need to learn from those above me, I need to learn from those below me, because it's a 360 degree learning environment. And even though those who were in my charge can offer ideas that I never thought of before can even give me pointers on how to improve. That would be number two. And then moving on to the third one. And now this covers a pretty broad concept. But hell more was never at a loss for words about how to deal with toxic leaders. And I think the three of us being army men, we probably served under our fair share of toxic leaders. And one thing that I've pulled in my lecture series about leadership is that you always tend to serve under more bad leaders than good leaders. But the tragic irony is that you learn more from the bad leaders than from the leaders, because they show you a perfect example of what not to be.
Pete Turner 6:53
Yeah, that's, that is yes, copy over. That's an army job. Hey, so let's go you back up for a second. So you're a lieutenant and Arbor. Lieutenant, it sounds like you have a real job. How the heck did you get your commander to buy off on you working on this project? I mean, I know obviously, in the military, commanders are always developing younger talent, you know, and trying to get guys like to absolutely right and get published that kind of thing. But this seems like a bigger project than the standard academic paper project.
Mike Guardia 7:25
Right? Well, let's, let's wind the clocks back to 2010. I had just pinned on first lieutenant. And at that point, I knew that I really wanted to dedicate a lot of time to this. And there were a lot of things. I think that worked in my favor. When I began serious work on the project, I was stationed at Fort Bliss, and how more his youngest son at the time was filling in Colonel David Moore, that was his youngest son, he was a full bird still on active duty at the time. And I was able to look them up on the global system. And I reached out to them, I said, Sir, this is who I am, you know, all the while, I was mindful of the fact that, you know, the specific tenant was emailing a folder. And I just told him that I admired his father greatly wanted to work on this biography. And if there was any way that we could set up an initial meeting, or you know, just talk about what his recollections were growing up with his father that I would be happy to talk and I'd be happy to meet him anywhere. Well, the story is really aligned, because about six hours later, he wrote me back and he said, Mike, you're worthless. I'm at Fort Bliss right now. And TY, what he does for dinner tonight. Right, right. Yeah, so as it were, he was on a TDY. And for all the listeners out there who don't know what that is, temporary duty, he was on a was on a 60 day TY to Fort Bliss, part of the army modernization command, I think it was. And he and I met for dinner in El Paso that evening. And by the end of the evening, we had a Dave locked in, for me to fly out to Alabama to visit with his father. And you know, being that the younger, more was in the process of retiring, he was going to be out there as well. And when I let it be known to my company commander at the time, you know, hey, sir, I want to use I want to us our unit squad leads to go out to Alabama notices. Curiosity is piqued. He said, Mike, you're from Houston by going out to Alabama. We got family out there. And I said, Well, no, sir. As matter of fact, I'm going to be spending about a week with how more and he said the hell more than Yes, sir. That is the one I'm going to be interviewing him. He's going to be my next book project. And he the worst he said I I can't repeat courtesy of the FCC. But just suffice to say that it was a it was a wholly followed by for better expletive.
Pete Turner 9:53
Yeah. You can swear on this show, man. Yeah, there's no se worried about that. But yeah, Holy fuck. I 'll say it for you.
Josh Mantz 10:01
Their pitches, boys the battlefield there. Now, man, Mike, that's such a powerful thing to capture those leadership lessons, right. And there's no doubt that how more is a legend, I quote him sometimes even in corporate settings with the one more thing line which has honestly become a personal mantra for me, that applies to anyone who's going through a difficult time or not. Right, there's always one more thing we can do. The focus on toxic leaders is another exceptional point. But I'm wondering with you, there's such a unique opportunity here to speak with a historian. Right, and the great work that you've done. And along that leadership point number two, that the concept of lifelong learning, how important is history in the present day.
Mike Guardia 10:51
I think history has an indelible importance here in the present day. And I think it's, I think it's a shame that it doesn't give, it doesn't get quite as much street cred, as it should. And the reason I say that is because you know, the needle, the age old adage, says that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. When you tell someone that you're getting a degree in history, or that you're studying history, typically, there are two questions that inevitably follow. They say, either one, are you going to be a teacher? or two? What are you going to do with a history degree. And I think what a large swath of society tends to take for granted is that, you know, when you learn and internalize the lessons of history, and you analyze them against the backdrop of current day events, you can influence policymakers and influence decision makers, to see the trends and make the connections and not go down similar paths that will have similar outcome.
Josh Mantz 11:55
There's so many things that are revealed. And I'll tell you straight up, I've been kind, I'm guilty of that for most of my life, like West Point, history, you know, I've kind of been guilty of being in the sprints for a decade, right and not really slowing down to reflect. And it's, it's about two years ago, where I really started to get serious about that. And I have to say that it's the study of history of the study of philosophy has become just exceptionally valuable, not only for kind of shaping the way we think about the future, but also for our mental and emotional resilience. In the present day, one of the facets of psychological trauma and adversity is, you know, can can can really leave us feeling like we're isolated, like, we're the only ones that have experienced adversity. And I'm just absolutely blown away. When when you really try to think with historical figures, when you really try to read their work, and place it into the context of what's happening in that time. Just the evolutions just the repeated evolutions of humanity, and how much adversity we've experienced as a species, you know, and how that kind of influences us to this day. It's, it's, it's amazing to me, so I don't know if you have any thoughts on the study of history as as being important to our personal growth and our personal resilience?
Mike Guardia 13:25
Absolutely, kind of dovetailing into what I was saying earlier about those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, you know, that I see. I see a lot of my comrades who have struggled with various levels of PTSD. And I hear about some of the treatment or in some cases, the lack thereof, you know, that they get from the Veterans Administration, it boggles my mind because, you know, the problems that they're running into or retreads of what our Vietnam veterans were running into, and, you know, the the body of knowledge that we carried out of that conflict, and moreover, how to deal with, you know, the advanced principles of PTSD, or shell shock or whatever you want to call it. They don't seem to have been internalized by a good swath of our modern day healthcare favorite.
Josh Mantz 14:16
Right, exactly.
Pete Turner 14:18
So let me ask you then about that. When How is in this crazy fight? Sergeant Major Plumlee is there to had, were you able to interact with the sergeant major at all before he passed on?
Mike Guardia 14:29
I was not unfortunately, anyone close to sergeant major can tell you that anybody, anytime anyone tried to get into the details of a service and you know, trying to elicit some, some biographical information from him, his reaction was always the same is stuck phrase was I don't do interviews. The one notable exception that he made was for how Moore's grandson Chris, and he answered a few token questions about this service, European theater and World War Two, and his 80 plus years of living, or actually 92 years of living. That was the only exception he made.
Pete Turner 15:12
So then let me ask you this question at a different way. You know, because any good officer any great commander knows to lean on his NCO and clearly Sergeant Major Plumlee had a lot to offer. At the time, you know, Colonel more what what how have to say about the Sergeant Majors impact on his ability to lead and what did he learned from him?
Unknown Speaker 15:34
Oh, well, he said the Plumlee was the best NCO he ever worked alongside and he said that he said that certain major Plumlee was the very essence of the paratrooper. He was dead honest, he was Stern, he was squared away. You had to get results from the man said sometimes, in fact, most of the time, the sergeant major could be very ornery, and be rather abrasive with his troops. The point where a lot of the soldiers actually opined that guy himself looked like Sergeant Major Plumlee. He said that you had to get results he was technically sound. And I'll never forget this. He told me he made my job as a battalion commander, that much easier. And I thank God for sort of matrix moment. You know, it's, it's, it's interesting, like part of your reasons for writing this biography, or, you know, we needed to get away from this singular experience that was so publicized, which was phenomenal in its own way, but was still only a small part of how Moore's life and and the challenges he faced through the rest of his career. What other types of situations Did you uncover that that how more was in the middle of as he kind of returned from Vietnam, and move forward with his career? Well, he was in the middle of probably one of the worst social times in America. You know, as in Vietnam itself wasn't bad enough, came home, an American public that best was apathetic about the war and about the Warriors themselves. And that apathy grew into antipathy. Within just a span of a few years, he unfortunately found himself on the front lines of two big problems that were running rampant in America at the time. One was the ever growing racial unrest. And the other was the very public backlash against the Vietnam War that more times than not was fueled by ramp and drove us. we fast forward just three years out of Vietnam. You know, he comes back and comes back stateside, he spent some time at Harvard getting some advanced degrees, paid for by the army when he returns to Korea. And right on the DMZ. He's on what's called the frontier of freedom. But he very quickly realized that the bigger threat to American forces in South Korea wasn't the communists on the other side of the 38th parallel, it was the rampant drug use and the racial unrest. We zero in on May of 1970. Right there at Camp Casey and the other camps that are strewn across the DMC up there in Korea, there was a huge race riots that broke out. And it was one of several race riots that were happening across army bases worldwide time. It was an all out go to war that happened amongst black soldiers, white soldiers and Hispanic soldiers. And within the span of that one night, you had several hundred soldiers who were injured. You had at least a few dozen killed. You had buildings on the post of Camp Casey itself being set on fire. Wow. Things were getting so bad that the MPs had to call on the local South Korean police. Well, the riot, and this was reflective of it. Yeah. And this, sadly was reflective of the more militant aspect of the civil rights movement that was gaining steam in America has time. And amongst all this chaos, the commander of the Eighth Army called how more into his office, you know, how more was working at three at the time. And he says, I got a problem with their long DMC and I think you're the solution have already relieved the division commander. So here my orders. He said, and this is a direct quote. He said, How get up there and straighten out that damn division. And how said Yes, sir. When do I leave the general set and half an hour, there's a Jeep outside waiting for you. To make the story a bit more entertaining. It does. And on a rather lighthearted note by the time how more got out to the got up to the summit ID headquarters there. Camp Casey, the division commander was actually hiding under his desk. Wow. You started general hiding under his desk, how more just nonchalantly walks into the office. He looks under the desk and he says Hi, I'm Hal More. I'm your relief out.
Pete Turner 20:01
Wow.
Mike Guardia 20:03
Yeah, so he knew he couldn't really fix those racial tensions overnight, and he couldn't make racism magically go away. But He instituted an equal opportunity policy and a zero tolerance policy for both drugs and racism. And the combined effort of the many programs that He instituted made that division performing in the upper east on.
Josh Mantz 20:26
And he did that on his own accord to stabilize the situation, right? He's implementing these policies. He's the head of this of society as a whole. Right? You know, it's just amazing to man and I hope his listeners, we can really reflect on what you're saying here, Mike, just just the gravity of the situation. Coming back from Vietnam, right, a conscripted military, right, massive challenges on the Human Rights Movement, back at home war protests, the country was in nothing short of chaos during that time. And what really struck me quite recently is the majority of the work that I do is actually in the behavioral health field. You know, I work with trauma therapists to help them understand the complexities of trauma through the lens of Modern Combat. And one of the foundations of that that I really focus on is the presence of moral injuries. Things like guilt, shame, powerlessness, betrayal. And the reason I bring that up is because today, we believe that our military and our law enforcement and first responder communities have a much higher moral and ethical standard, then in past decades and past years, which is something to celebrate. Right. And it's also because of that high standard, that that we believe that service members today are more prone to moral injuries. Right. But because there's there's less tolerance for error. And I'd love to get your thoughts on just, you know, as we work with service members today, and kind of reflecting on the meaning. You know, the last decade plus of combat almost two decades, how far we've really come as a force. You know, it's only been 20 3040 years, right? Where you go from this period of complete chaos, to a complete revamp of military culture in the professionalization of the force that we see today. And and I just what a testament to leaders like how more to the leaders that have paved the way for us in the present day? I'm just curious to get your thoughts on how significant is that transition? And what are we missing? Right? What are we not thinking about?
Jon Leon Guerrero 22:39
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Pete Turner 22:53
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Jon Leon Guerrero 23:01
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Pete Turner 23:09
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Josh Mantz 23:10
How significant is that transition? And what are we missing? Right? What are we not thinking about?
Mike Guardia 23:16
Already? Well, Josh, that's a great question. And, you know, that I actually think is a very astute observation, because one of the things that I've noticed in past few years, you know, I, I left active duty in 2014. And I've been in the reserves ever since. And one thing that I think is being made a more of a priority, and actually taken more seriously these days than in years past and even recent years past, is revamping the moral climate of the military. And we're taking strides to combat toxic leadership. Because when I look back at some of the other conflicts that we've been in, and you know, my interactions with veterans of those arrows, and the interviews that I've conducted with them for any number of projects that I've done, I've noticed that there have been qualitative differences between what was considered acceptable behavior from the leadership back then, and what's considered acceptable behavior now, right. And I've even seen gradients of this, I mean, not quite as pronounced, but I've seen gradients of it in my own time. Certainly, as a matter of fact, I think there was a definite before and after, you know, with regards to when they repealed the Don't Ask, Don't Tell. But aside from that, I've noticed that more and more units, both on the active and the reserve side are becoming a lot more a lot more intense in how they handled toxic leadership, because there seemed to be a mentality of until recently, that toxic leaders were okay, as long as they got the job done. And if you got your feelings hurt, or if there was something that was said or done to you that may have been questionable, well, your overreacting to it, and you need to suck it up and drive on, because that's what but I think nowadays, and I think there are a lot of things that have contributed to this change. But I think nowadays, they're being a little bit more cognizant of how to create and maintain unit cohesion by metaphysical forces other than duress, and I don't rank you in because I said, so.
Pete Turner 25:26
Yeah, so one of the things that I guess it's hard to understand if you're not in the military is that basically everybody gets a time to lead. You know, if you're a lieutenant, you get a platoon for a while, if you're a captain, you get a company and so on. And same thing on the NCO side. So one of the things we all get to see, as you said, in the, in the early part of the show is what bad leaders look like. And just by simply not doing that you're already a pretty good leader, but also how to be like how to lead by following you know, like, hey, the boss says this, I've been the boss, I know what it's like to not get what I need. Let me make sure they get what they get and get what they need. What kind of staff member was how, like, how did he lead from the staff position?
Mike Guardia 26:09
Well, he learned from the staff position, I think, first and foremost by really seeking out the higher ups that were the most knowledgeable and also the most approachable. One of the stories that he related to me was when he was a young paratrooper in occupied Japan. You know, here he was this young lieutenant among a very distinguished coterie of combat veterans who had been through some meat grinder battles of the Pacific, and he took the opportunity to learn from telling an executive officer, for me, his name was major Herbert Mansfield, and said that when I was working for him in the shop, he was the one who really took me under his wing. He was the one who I noticed was the most approachable and the most practical, he may not at all gotten the highest marks. But his level headedness I knew was going to pay dividends for him later on down the line. And if you look and other organizations within the military, you tend to see variations of that dynamic, I can say from personal experiences. When I was a tank platoon leader, there was one of our sister platoons, who had a platoon sergeant who was very knowledgeable, you've been in for a while had done tours in Kosovo had done two tours in Iraq. g7 had a had the biggest rack of fruit salad of anybody in the company. But he was to put it lightly, he just wasn't the nicest person. And he wasn't the type of guy who would truly lead by example, I thought and the junior enlisted, some of the junior stos picked up on that five as well. So you saw all of the junior soldiers gravitate towards another end to with an e6, who was every bit as knowledgeable as certainly more approachable. And you see that dynamic happening a lot, but the rank and file in any organization will tend to gravitate towards a junior or a mid level leader who they think they can put their trust in.
Josh Mantz 28:15
It's all about trust, isn't it? Yeah. You know, I'm completely with you, Mike, that the on the behavior outside, especially I tie this back into their I mean, toxic leadership is the number one thing that I see impacting the emotional and psychological state of service members. You know, it's it's exceptional how far we've come. It's very sad when we see situations like this developed within the military. And you know, we're just like any other organization, I think there's a much higher density of exceptional leaders. We've all got those folks who are not. And you know, one thing that I'm sure you've experienced, I'd love to I'd love to get your thoughts. You know, around the time you're leading a armor platoon and after commission, but like a lieutenant doesn't come into that situation with great humility. Right, and they will get crushed. Right, and as they should, as they should. What was your time like as a Lieutenant?
Mike Guardia 29:13
Well, it was, it was a great learning experience. For me. I was very blessed that I had an incredible platoon sergeant, I will never forget, he and I are still very close friends to this day. Very fun NCO by the name of Sergeant First Class and later Master Sergeant, Sergeant First Class, James Patrick. And if there was ever a man who was meant to be a tanker, a mentor, and just an all around good, good all American Southern boy, Patrick. And, you know, he, he was the right. He was the right combination of toughness, humility and kindness. And he took every opportunity he could to help keep me straight, and really did a great job of looking out for me. I think every platoon leader should be be as lucky to have a platoon sergeant that I did. Of course, yeah, I knew other platoon leaders who were not so fortunate and had platoon sergeants who, frankly, I didn't think were very good and CEOs, and they seem to be more interested in creating a power struggle with their defense than anything else. But it was an incredible experience. For me, a lot of the junior soldiers that I had time were fresh out of basic training. Matter of fact, I think every driver and every loader and my platoon had been in the same basic training cycle together. Wow. So Wow. Yeah. So they, they all knew each other. And I just did what I could to let them know that I wanted to create a tactical family environment. And I took it really as a charge for me to try and make my platoon of community in and of itself. What I would do when we were in garrison is I would create or create these little potlucks and I'll create these parties that we would have inside the they and, you know, soldiers wives participate in those and they were strictly professional level events. I did a platoon Secret Santa, you know, for our first Christmas party. And even on multiple occasions, I said, Okay, if, if any of you studs can beat me on the PT test, it will be a $50 gift card to target or a retail establishment of your choice.
Josh Mantz 31:25
How much money did you have to
Unknown Speaker 31:26
fork out? well enough for three of my soldiers to get a 303 points ahead of my own store? Yeah, yeah, there you go.
Pete Turner 31:34
We made a deal with our commander. So first off, let me just say, as a counterintelligence agent, we're often authorized separate rats, we get an allowance for food for the audience. But that usually happens only when you're married and not for the rest of the army. And so in our unit, everybody who was projected out to a field office when we were in garrison, they all got separate rations, because they, you know, we're working and doing things on our always doing things. So commanded, we went to him and said, Hey, listen, we have to go to the chow hall. We're the only ones in the unit that are required to do that. He's like, Yeah, not my problem, like, well, but it sucks. Like, we have to channel every day and it sucks. And he's like, I could do it. And we're like, all right, how about this, you read up the chow hall every day, every meal for a week. And if you can't make it, we asked the 10 of us we all get separate rations. And he made it literally half a day. And he held up his into the bargain. So it's, it's those are good. Those are good leadership tools. I mean, getting someone to buy it on something, you know, dude, extra PT, you know, you're trying to get young guys capable of running a tank. You know, sure. You don't know anything. You're in LT but you do know how to lead people, you don't come with nothing in the tank, you've got some some skill. So it's great to see that you are creative and go right to the pocketbook and get these get these privates up to speed I wanted to ask you about Joe Galloway, have you had much interaction with him? He's actually going to be on the show, probably next month, I had,
Unknown Speaker 33:00
you know, Joe Galloway was an incredible asset. He went so many pictures to all three books that I did pertain to how more I had the chance to speak with him at length at how Moore's funeral, which was a beautiful ceremony, I completely befitting the hero, and Joe and I will trade the occasional barbs on Facebook, here and there. And yet he he is just an incredible guy he brings brings such a deep introspection to what the troops that I drank base there and you know, is really, I think, to Joe's everlasting credit, he uses the chance to share his feelings almost as a form of therapy. And I'm glad that he's able to share his thoughts, you know, with the broader public.
Pete Turner 33:47
If there wasn't a Joe Galloway, would there be a hallmark?
Unknown Speaker 33:50
Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm sure of it. I just think that Joe Galloway did such an incredible job of amplifying everything that how more had to contribute, not only to that battle, but, you know, to the greater body of literature to ensure you know that that story doesn't die. No.
Pete Turner 34:08
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it helps to have Joe there to break him out of the military community into a bigger thing. But yeah, that's that's a great answer. I wanted to sort of shift focus here in the last little part of the show. And I wanted to ask Josh, a question, Josh, when you're out in the civilian world, I mean, civilian roads don't they don't have a p O, DC. They don't have an officer basic course, they don't have all these areas where we're specifically focused on developing job skills, as well as leadership skills. How does how impact your work as you go to give these skills to corporations, because it's just it's not something that you they tend to promote someone who has success, whether that success is by design or by accident?
Josh Mantz 34:51
broadly, it's, it's one advantage of the military. And I'm not sure if this was intentional, or just unfolded that way. And somebody mentioned it earlier, I'm not sure if it was you, Peter, or Mike. But we rarely are in the same assignment for more than two years, before shifting around, and the next assignment could be completely different than the former. So I always think that's one of the most amazing things about the military in terms of its overall leadership development program, just by default, because when I go into a brand new team, new circumstances, new location, I'm back at this position where I really am coming in with a bit of a blank slate. And and I have to purge that unit with melody, I have to learn the skill sets and strength leader and I have to cultivate new, I may have to cultivate new leadership skill sets, in order to adapt to that organization. So on the corporate side, programs like that aren't very common, it's much harder to to accomplish something like that. However, there are things that we can do that continue to recommend push and have have implemented which is like rotational development programs are really effective inside of companies, if a company will put the resources behind it, you know, what happens if we take an engineer, you know, for in a manufacturing environment, what happens if we take a design engineer and put them on a production line for a day? And vice versa? Right, because, you know, really deepening our perspective of leadership is really all about that word. It's about perspective. Right, and kind of putting people in uncomfortable unfamiliar situations that force them to respond and, and, and rise up to a new level. I don't know how you feel about that, Mike.
Mike Guardia 36:34
Yeah, you know, I think that it's good for any leader to rotate around a few different positions really to learn how the organization as a whole works, it was something that I could relate to, somewhat because after, after a 13 month tour, as a tank platoon leader, I was suddenly made a battalion us for knowing absolutely nothing about logistics. I mean, I came in with a complete blank slate I was, I was put in the position really, because I was in your ranking first in the Senate. And I was replacing the captain that had gone on to bigger and better things. And I just looked at, I looked at the 9294 in my charge, and just told myself, okay, guys, I'm a sponge, and I'm ready to absorb anything you all can tell me. You know, to that point, as far as I knew, every time I needed you, every time I needed food every time I needed ammunition. You know, as far as I was concerned, it just magically appeared, I didn't really give much thought into the logistical process that made all of my assets available, I gotta tell you pound for pound. And I say this with a guarded tongue pound for pound, the end of Italian us for was the best job in the army that I ever had. It, he gave me a chance to work with a very tight knit team, I was given clear parameters and clear guidance. And I was able to use my creativity and my imaginative thinking, to great effect, which, you know, of course, in some jobs I've had in the army, my creativity has been rewarded. And in other aspects, my creativity got me in trouble.
Pete Turner 38:17
When you deployed when you were a four, or were you in garrison,
Mike Guardia 38:21
not as before? No.
Pete Turner 38:22
Okay. That's what I give the audience some color on this, because it's interesting, because, you know, I've sat in staff rooms all the time watching commanders run their show and seen a variety of styles of leadership. But there is like, there's so there's Mike the tanker, you know, like, just getting down this command time. And now he's gotta go, he's got to go provision the unit. And if you're deployed, and there's something that isn't right, and there's something always not right, when you're deployed, you're always short on something that's hard to get, because it's just it's hard to get. And so the unit I was in, we just, we weren't technically authorized a full ration for lunch, we're supposed to be Mr. Reese, and the colonel sock, we're going to make this happen. And the four before had kind of laid the, the the supply guy before had laid the groundwork to make it so that we could have, you know, some higher level of food than that, because really, our camp, it wasn't right. For that it was it was more of a logistical error to have us categorize this way. But we kept getting brown lettuce. And so the colonel, after like four weeks of being briefed on brown lettuce, he looks over at the floor, and this guy is, you know, 24 years old, and he's trying as hard as he can just go fix it, you know, and sure enough lieutenants like, that was the guidance that he needed, just the frustration and the anger. And the boss is like, I don't and the thing is, is I go into the the boss's room afterwards, and we're talking about this stuff. And he's like, I already know how to fix this problem. I know where office to call in Atlanta to get to, you know, but the thing is, is he couldn't get that Lieutenant to move. So after trying several different tools to get them to figure out how to solve it. He just used a grunt, and just laser beam eyes to get that guy to fix it. And sure enough, he figured it out. Yeah.
Mike Guardia 40:11
The chips are down. Yeah, I think that's when the learning curve starts to get the speakers.
Pete Turner 40:16
Yeah, for sure. I just have one more question for you. When you look at what how has contributed to the corporate sector? What do you think is the big lesson that is the hardest for because you're a reservist, you know, you know, people in the corporate world? What's the hardest thing for them to get about his lessons? Because it's easy to say, you know, go be a great leader, but the hard lessons are the or the area where you grow the most?
Mike Guardia 40:38
Right? What the? That's a very good question. And I'm actually glad you asked it, I think, if I could distill it down to one broad concept that I think doesn't get the attention it needs, is that a workers performance very often reflects the attitude of his leadership. And that tends to be something that a lot of leaders, both in and out of the military don't seem to realize, many, many years ago, someone told me that you attract more flies with honey than with vinegar. And, you know, while there is a certain context, a certain place and time for, you know, raising your voice, a few octaves and digging into people when they need it, you always do attract more flies with honey than with vinegar, and the performance of your of your workforce improves exponentially in correlation to how good of an attitude their leader actually has. And the corollary to that is that the people who are underneath you, in any organization, you know, they all have different ways of processing information. And they all have different speeds at which they process information. You know, there seems to be an unfortunate default mentality that if, if an employee doesn't quite doesn't quite interpret the directions correctly the first time or doesn't produce what you're looking for the first time that that employee is either not motivated, or that they're somehow stupid. Well, the thing that I think more leaders need to zero in on is that employees, followers, subordinates, whatever you want to call them, they process information differently, and they process it at different speeds. And the two examples that I can give that, in closing, is that I can bring two employees in front of me. And I can tell both of them, draw me a picture of a blue shirt, one guy draws a picture of a sky blue polo shirt, and the other guy draws a picture of a navy blue teacher, well, neither gentlemen is wrong, they just performed the task according to how they interpreted the instructions, and nine times out of 10, I guarantee every leader will find that when the outcome is not what they want, it is because the instructions weren't quite clear enough to a point where the other person
Unknown Speaker 42:59
could
Mike Guardia 43:01
understand it and internalize it. And the last example, I have about of the different speeds of processing, you know, sometimes when you're getting a lot of information and a lot of instructions, you know, some of it just gets lost in translation. You know, for instance, you have two guys one with a high processing speed, the other with a low processing speed. I asked them both the same question, who was the first President of the United States? The guy with the high processing speed answers me immediately? Oh, yeah, that was George Washington. But the guy with the slow processing speed has to break it down with it says don't tell Okay, well, who talking about a person was means it's in the past probably already dead. First means he was number one, President of the United States. Oh, yeah. That's George Washington. But by the time he answers that question, the other fellows already moved on to the third topic. Bit over simplified, but, you know, that just is illustrated, you know, the different processing speeds people have.
Josh Mantz 44:04
Are you right on those are great examples, Mike. I mean, it's, it's leadership is is it's never like a canned thing. That's the say, you know, it's dynamic. And and each individual person responds to each situation slightly differently. And our role is to be able to unlock the best of that to allow them to flourish and to allow the team to flourish. Pino are kind of curious Mike, what's what's next for Mike guardia.
Mike Guardia 44:30
Alrighty, well, I'm glad you asked. So, this upcoming year, as a matter of fact, November 1 of this year, I will be releasing a book titled American armor in the Pacific that is part of a part of casements illustrated series, just highlighting the tank battles in the Pacific Theater of World War Two, as well as a as well as a book called dangerous forward, which is a biography of a gentleman name. I'm not sure if you heard of him, but he's a West Point grad class of 1950, decorated for heroism in Korea awarded the Distinguished Service process the Battle of songs train, and later became the chief architect of the infamous pentagon papers. Oh, yeah. And not only that, went on to went on to be the commander of stealth calm, when we had troops in Grenada, and also down in El Salvador.
Josh Mantz 45:29
I don't think a very, very interesting read man.
Pete Turner 45:33
Yeah, Yeah, that'd be great. come back and talk to us about that book, would you? Absolutely. It'd be my pleasure, Pete. Oh, that'd be great. And maybe we'll have john McKay. Come on, because he knows a lot about that era, and, and that part of the world. So that'd be awesome. Everybody should go to Amazon and support Mike yard, his books, and that you have had worked with Amazon is Go on, buy the book, but make sure you leave the five star review, and then do a little quick review. But not to be long, doesn't really even matter much what you say. Just write something in there. Because that that bumps the book up on the charts. It lets people find it. And look, if you don't know about how more stuff or you've seen the movie, that's all you know about him. Let me tell you right now, how more I think, without exception, and this is one of the few people like this military is is revered for his ability to lead and adapt and do things like yeah, invent a way to fix a division, you don't just go up and show up and fix a division. I mean, that's that's give or take. It's 25,000 people. It's a town that's in full civil unrest. And people are being killed while you're trying to fight a war. And his his orders are go on Fuck that. And so it's how is worth your time if you want to develop the ability to lead and understand these things. And God bless you, Mike for telling that story. Because I just can't get enough how more I just think it's great. And thank you so much for doing it.
Unknown Speaker 46:55
No, it is my pleasure, brother. It certainly was an opportunity of a lifetime.
Unknown Speaker 47:00
Yeah, man. And thanks for and I mean this with as much sincerity as I can possibly give you. But thank you for having the courage to pursue your passion, pursue the field of history and bringing these lessons to the forefront so people can start processing what they're extremely Nate through that lens. So thank you. Thank you, john.
Mike Guardia 47:21
Absolutely, very well. Thank you both. I mean, it has been an absolute pleasure to speak with both of you today. And I give the both of you the highest salutations and props for what you guys do.
Hey, this is john Leon Guerrero. Our guest today is Mike guardia. He's an author, a military historian and a veteran of the United States Army having served six years on active duty as an armor officer. He's been nominated twice for the army historical foundations distinguished Book Award as an active member in the military writer Society of America. He's the author of How more a soldier once and always that's the biography that chronicled the life of Lieutenant General Harold G. Moore, who was the subject of the film We Were Soldiers starring Mel Gibson. Mike has spoken at the US Special Operations Command, the International spy Museum, and the george bush 41 Presidential Library. His works been reviewed in The Washington Times the military review, Vietnam magazine, the Kanada report, defense web, South Africa and soldier magazine UK. Today he speaks on the breakdown show we're delighted to have him Please enjoy our our special guest, Mike guardia millions rock productions This is Jay Mohr
Unknown Speaker 1:08
and this is Jordan, Hans's, director from the
Unknown Speaker 1:11
Navy Sebastian youngsters Rick Marotta,
Unknown Speaker 1:13
Stewart Copeland. Baxter Gabby Reese is Rob belly This is Johnny Andre and this is Pete a Turner.
Mike Guardia 1:23
Hi, everyone, this is Mike Guardia, author of Hal Moore a soldier once and always and you are listening to the break it down show.
Niko Leon Guerrero 1:32
And now the break it down show with john Leon Guerrero and Pete a Turner.
Pete Turner 1:38
Yeah, this is great. We've got Mike on the line with us. And then Josh monsters come back at this time as a co host. So it's interesting to have, Mike, Josh and myself all army guys talking each of us creating in our own specific way, you know, post transition. So thanks, fellas for coming on. And, Mike, I guess the reason why we invited you was when we had john on the show, we talked about how Moore's leadership and that inevitably leads over to you because you're sort of the holder of the how more leadership principle thing was that something by design, I know you saw a movie and were inspired by the We Were Soldiers once in young, but has this been by designed to kind of grab this story and hold on to it?
Mike Guardia 2:21
Absolutely, Brother, you know, it was about seven years or so after the films and release that I read the book, we were soldiers once in young and also read the follow up book, we are soldiers still. And that was determined to learn as much about how more as I could. And I figured at that point in time, somebody had to with jumped on a biography of how more I mean, just given how popular he was throughout the army, and really throughout American pop culture. And I was surprised to learn that no one had yet written anything about it. So I thought to myself, young, idealistic Second Lieutenant that I was at the time that really wanted to get a book out there and figure that story of how more need to be told beyond what he did in the valley. And more to the point if I if I had enough information available, to try and get a book out there on his leadership principle, so that in one way or another by design was really what I set out to do from the beginning. Right.
Josh Mantz 3:26
You know, my this is Josh, my first exposure to how more was actually live at West Point when I was a cadet. And, you know, it's one of those talks. He's He's such a riveting speaker, that you just always remember those words, right? And it was actually during the release of We Were Soldiers the movie, they secretly previewed it at West Point for the Corps cadets, which is pretty awesome. But I'm kind of wondering, is there any particular leadership lessons that stuck with you? Or maybe some new ones that you uncovered, as you spend so much time with him?
Mike Guardia 4:00
Absolutely, absolutely. You know, there were so many good pieces of wisdom that he put down on paper and so many great things that you told me, if I can probably narrow it down to a, I can probably narrow it down to a top five list of the things that really stuck with me to folks. And the first one is probably one I think everyone's the most familiar with, it's the principle of three strikes, and you're not out, there seems to be a negative connotation these days, with the concept of failure. And what I think a lot of people don't realize both in and out of the military is that that failure isn't something you should be afraid of, it should be something that you use as an opportunity to grow. I heard in another context, something that stuck with me ever since. And I think it goes hand in hand with the principle of three strikes and you're out, fail early, fail often and fail forward. You know, fail early, because that's how you learn from your mistakes fail on. So you know how to refine your technique, refine your craft, fail forward, by learning from your mistakes and taking them with three strikes, and you're never out. Because there's always one more thing that you can do to influence any situation in your favor, know, there's always something and it's probably something that you haven't thought of yet that can really pay dividends, at some point down the line. And the second thing that he said, that really stuck with me, in order to be a leader, you have to be a lifelong learner. You know, there tends to be, I think, a trend once you've been in a particular line of work for too long. And I really think this is human nature when you think about it, but it tends to be a degree of complacency. where you say, Okay, well, I've been doing this for a while this ain't my first rodeo, I think I know, generally enough to keep doing what I'm doing and keep producing good results. But you always have to be in the mindset, hey, I need to keep on learning and I need to work, I need to learn from those above me, I need to learn from those below me, because it's a 360 degree learning environment. And even though those who were in my charge can offer ideas that I never thought of before can even give me pointers on how to improve. That would be number two. And then moving on to the third one. And now this covers a pretty broad concept. But hell more was never at a loss for words about how to deal with toxic leaders. And I think the three of us being army men, we probably served under our fair share of toxic leaders. And one thing that I've pulled in my lecture series about leadership is that you always tend to serve under more bad leaders than good leaders. But the tragic irony is that you learn more from the bad leaders than from the leaders, because they show you a perfect example of what not to be.
Pete Turner 6:53
Yeah, that's, that is yes, copy over. That's an army job. Hey, so let's go you back up for a second. So you're a lieutenant and Arbor. Lieutenant, it sounds like you have a real job. How the heck did you get your commander to buy off on you working on this project? I mean, I know obviously, in the military, commanders are always developing younger talent, you know, and trying to get guys like to absolutely right and get published that kind of thing. But this seems like a bigger project than the standard academic paper project.
Mike Guardia 7:25
Right? Well, let's, let's wind the clocks back to 2010. I had just pinned on first lieutenant. And at that point, I knew that I really wanted to dedicate a lot of time to this. And there were a lot of things. I think that worked in my favor. When I began serious work on the project, I was stationed at Fort Bliss, and how more his youngest son at the time was filling in Colonel David Moore, that was his youngest son, he was a full bird still on active duty at the time. And I was able to look them up on the global system. And I reached out to them, I said, Sir, this is who I am, you know, all the while, I was mindful of the fact that, you know, the specific tenant was emailing a folder. And I just told him that I admired his father greatly wanted to work on this biography. And if there was any way that we could set up an initial meeting, or you know, just talk about what his recollections were growing up with his father that I would be happy to talk and I'd be happy to meet him anywhere. Well, the story is really aligned, because about six hours later, he wrote me back and he said, Mike, you're worthless. I'm at Fort Bliss right now. And TY, what he does for dinner tonight. Right, right. Yeah, so as it were, he was on a TDY. And for all the listeners out there who don't know what that is, temporary duty, he was on a was on a 60 day TY to Fort Bliss, part of the army modernization command, I think it was. And he and I met for dinner in El Paso that evening. And by the end of the evening, we had a Dave locked in, for me to fly out to Alabama to visit with his father. And you know, being that the younger, more was in the process of retiring, he was going to be out there as well. And when I let it be known to my company commander at the time, you know, hey, sir, I want to use I want to us our unit squad leads to go out to Alabama notices. Curiosity is piqued. He said, Mike, you're from Houston by going out to Alabama. We got family out there. And I said, Well, no, sir. As matter of fact, I'm going to be spending about a week with how more and he said the hell more than Yes, sir. That is the one I'm going to be interviewing him. He's going to be my next book project. And he the worst he said I I can't repeat courtesy of the FCC. But just suffice to say that it was a it was a wholly followed by for better expletive.
Pete Turner 9:53
Yeah. You can swear on this show, man. Yeah, there's no se worried about that. But yeah, Holy fuck. I 'll say it for you.
Josh Mantz 10:01
Their pitches, boys the battlefield there. Now, man, Mike, that's such a powerful thing to capture those leadership lessons, right. And there's no doubt that how more is a legend, I quote him sometimes even in corporate settings with the one more thing line which has honestly become a personal mantra for me, that applies to anyone who's going through a difficult time or not. Right, there's always one more thing we can do. The focus on toxic leaders is another exceptional point. But I'm wondering with you, there's such a unique opportunity here to speak with a historian. Right, and the great work that you've done. And along that leadership point number two, that the concept of lifelong learning, how important is history in the present day.
Mike Guardia 10:51
I think history has an indelible importance here in the present day. And I think it's, I think it's a shame that it doesn't give, it doesn't get quite as much street cred, as it should. And the reason I say that is because you know, the needle, the age old adage, says that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. When you tell someone that you're getting a degree in history, or that you're studying history, typically, there are two questions that inevitably follow. They say, either one, are you going to be a teacher? or two? What are you going to do with a history degree. And I think what a large swath of society tends to take for granted is that, you know, when you learn and internalize the lessons of history, and you analyze them against the backdrop of current day events, you can influence policymakers and influence decision makers, to see the trends and make the connections and not go down similar paths that will have similar outcome.
Josh Mantz 11:55
There's so many things that are revealed. And I'll tell you straight up, I've been kind, I'm guilty of that for most of my life, like West Point, history, you know, I've kind of been guilty of being in the sprints for a decade, right and not really slowing down to reflect. And it's, it's about two years ago, where I really started to get serious about that. And I have to say that it's the study of history of the study of philosophy has become just exceptionally valuable, not only for kind of shaping the way we think about the future, but also for our mental and emotional resilience. In the present day, one of the facets of psychological trauma and adversity is, you know, can can can really leave us feeling like we're isolated, like, we're the only ones that have experienced adversity. And I'm just absolutely blown away. When when you really try to think with historical figures, when you really try to read their work, and place it into the context of what's happening in that time. Just the evolutions just the repeated evolutions of humanity, and how much adversity we've experienced as a species, you know, and how that kind of influences us to this day. It's, it's, it's amazing to me, so I don't know if you have any thoughts on the study of history as as being important to our personal growth and our personal resilience?
Mike Guardia 13:25
Absolutely, kind of dovetailing into what I was saying earlier about those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, you know, that I see. I see a lot of my comrades who have struggled with various levels of PTSD. And I hear about some of the treatment or in some cases, the lack thereof, you know, that they get from the Veterans Administration, it boggles my mind because, you know, the problems that they're running into or retreads of what our Vietnam veterans were running into, and, you know, the the body of knowledge that we carried out of that conflict, and moreover, how to deal with, you know, the advanced principles of PTSD, or shell shock or whatever you want to call it. They don't seem to have been internalized by a good swath of our modern day healthcare favorite.
Josh Mantz 14:16
Right, exactly.
Pete Turner 14:18
So let me ask you then about that. When How is in this crazy fight? Sergeant Major Plumlee is there to had, were you able to interact with the sergeant major at all before he passed on?
Mike Guardia 14:29
I was not unfortunately, anyone close to sergeant major can tell you that anybody, anytime anyone tried to get into the details of a service and you know, trying to elicit some, some biographical information from him, his reaction was always the same is stuck phrase was I don't do interviews. The one notable exception that he made was for how Moore's grandson Chris, and he answered a few token questions about this service, European theater and World War Two, and his 80 plus years of living, or actually 92 years of living. That was the only exception he made.
Pete Turner 15:12
So then let me ask you this question at a different way. You know, because any good officer any great commander knows to lean on his NCO and clearly Sergeant Major Plumlee had a lot to offer. At the time, you know, Colonel more what what how have to say about the Sergeant Majors impact on his ability to lead and what did he learned from him?
Unknown Speaker 15:34
Oh, well, he said the Plumlee was the best NCO he ever worked alongside and he said that he said that certain major Plumlee was the very essence of the paratrooper. He was dead honest, he was Stern, he was squared away. You had to get results from the man said sometimes, in fact, most of the time, the sergeant major could be very ornery, and be rather abrasive with his troops. The point where a lot of the soldiers actually opined that guy himself looked like Sergeant Major Plumlee. He said that you had to get results he was technically sound. And I'll never forget this. He told me he made my job as a battalion commander, that much easier. And I thank God for sort of matrix moment. You know, it's, it's, it's interesting, like part of your reasons for writing this biography, or, you know, we needed to get away from this singular experience that was so publicized, which was phenomenal in its own way, but was still only a small part of how Moore's life and and the challenges he faced through the rest of his career. What other types of situations Did you uncover that that how more was in the middle of as he kind of returned from Vietnam, and move forward with his career? Well, he was in the middle of probably one of the worst social times in America. You know, as in Vietnam itself wasn't bad enough, came home, an American public that best was apathetic about the war and about the Warriors themselves. And that apathy grew into antipathy. Within just a span of a few years, he unfortunately found himself on the front lines of two big problems that were running rampant in America at the time. One was the ever growing racial unrest. And the other was the very public backlash against the Vietnam War that more times than not was fueled by ramp and drove us. we fast forward just three years out of Vietnam. You know, he comes back and comes back stateside, he spent some time at Harvard getting some advanced degrees, paid for by the army when he returns to Korea. And right on the DMZ. He's on what's called the frontier of freedom. But he very quickly realized that the bigger threat to American forces in South Korea wasn't the communists on the other side of the 38th parallel, it was the rampant drug use and the racial unrest. We zero in on May of 1970. Right there at Camp Casey and the other camps that are strewn across the DMC up there in Korea, there was a huge race riots that broke out. And it was one of several race riots that were happening across army bases worldwide time. It was an all out go to war that happened amongst black soldiers, white soldiers and Hispanic soldiers. And within the span of that one night, you had several hundred soldiers who were injured. You had at least a few dozen killed. You had buildings on the post of Camp Casey itself being set on fire. Wow. Things were getting so bad that the MPs had to call on the local South Korean police. Well, the riot, and this was reflective of it. Yeah. And this, sadly was reflective of the more militant aspect of the civil rights movement that was gaining steam in America has time. And amongst all this chaos, the commander of the Eighth Army called how more into his office, you know, how more was working at three at the time. And he says, I got a problem with their long DMC and I think you're the solution have already relieved the division commander. So here my orders. He said, and this is a direct quote. He said, How get up there and straighten out that damn division. And how said Yes, sir. When do I leave the general set and half an hour, there's a Jeep outside waiting for you. To make the story a bit more entertaining. It does. And on a rather lighthearted note by the time how more got out to the got up to the summit ID headquarters there. Camp Casey, the division commander was actually hiding under his desk. Wow. You started general hiding under his desk, how more just nonchalantly walks into the office. He looks under the desk and he says Hi, I'm Hal More. I'm your relief out.
Pete Turner 20:01
Wow.
Mike Guardia 20:03
Yeah, so he knew he couldn't really fix those racial tensions overnight, and he couldn't make racism magically go away. But He instituted an equal opportunity policy and a zero tolerance policy for both drugs and racism. And the combined effort of the many programs that He instituted made that division performing in the upper east on.
Josh Mantz 20:26
And he did that on his own accord to stabilize the situation, right? He's implementing these policies. He's the head of this of society as a whole. Right? You know, it's just amazing to man and I hope his listeners, we can really reflect on what you're saying here, Mike, just just the gravity of the situation. Coming back from Vietnam, right, a conscripted military, right, massive challenges on the Human Rights Movement, back at home war protests, the country was in nothing short of chaos during that time. And what really struck me quite recently is the majority of the work that I do is actually in the behavioral health field. You know, I work with trauma therapists to help them understand the complexities of trauma through the lens of Modern Combat. And one of the foundations of that that I really focus on is the presence of moral injuries. Things like guilt, shame, powerlessness, betrayal. And the reason I bring that up is because today, we believe that our military and our law enforcement and first responder communities have a much higher moral and ethical standard, then in past decades and past years, which is something to celebrate. Right. And it's also because of that high standard, that that we believe that service members today are more prone to moral injuries. Right. But because there's there's less tolerance for error. And I'd love to get your thoughts on just, you know, as we work with service members today, and kind of reflecting on the meaning. You know, the last decade plus of combat almost two decades, how far we've really come as a force. You know, it's only been 20 3040 years, right? Where you go from this period of complete chaos, to a complete revamp of military culture in the professionalization of the force that we see today. And and I just what a testament to leaders like how more to the leaders that have paved the way for us in the present day? I'm just curious to get your thoughts on how significant is that transition? And what are we missing? Right? What are we not thinking about?
Jon Leon Guerrero 22:39
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Jon Leon Guerrero 23:01
reach out to us on Twitter, at Pete a Turner, or at john LG 69, I had to break it down show, there's 1000 ways to get ahold of us.
Pete Turner 23:09
Now enjoy the show.
Josh Mantz 23:10
How significant is that transition? And what are we missing? Right? What are we not thinking about?
Mike Guardia 23:16
Already? Well, Josh, that's a great question. And, you know, that I actually think is a very astute observation, because one of the things that I've noticed in past few years, you know, I, I left active duty in 2014. And I've been in the reserves ever since. And one thing that I think is being made a more of a priority, and actually taken more seriously these days than in years past and even recent years past, is revamping the moral climate of the military. And we're taking strides to combat toxic leadership. Because when I look back at some of the other conflicts that we've been in, and you know, my interactions with veterans of those arrows, and the interviews that I've conducted with them for any number of projects that I've done, I've noticed that there have been qualitative differences between what was considered acceptable behavior from the leadership back then, and what's considered acceptable behavior now, right. And I've even seen gradients of this, I mean, not quite as pronounced, but I've seen gradients of it in my own time. Certainly, as a matter of fact, I think there was a definite before and after, you know, with regards to when they repealed the Don't Ask, Don't Tell. But aside from that, I've noticed that more and more units, both on the active and the reserve side are becoming a lot more a lot more intense in how they handled toxic leadership, because there seemed to be a mentality of until recently, that toxic leaders were okay, as long as they got the job done. And if you got your feelings hurt, or if there was something that was said or done to you that may have been questionable, well, your overreacting to it, and you need to suck it up and drive on, because that's what but I think nowadays, and I think there are a lot of things that have contributed to this change. But I think nowadays, they're being a little bit more cognizant of how to create and maintain unit cohesion by metaphysical forces other than duress, and I don't rank you in because I said, so.
Pete Turner 25:26
Yeah, so one of the things that I guess it's hard to understand if you're not in the military is that basically everybody gets a time to lead. You know, if you're a lieutenant, you get a platoon for a while, if you're a captain, you get a company and so on. And same thing on the NCO side. So one of the things we all get to see, as you said, in the, in the early part of the show is what bad leaders look like. And just by simply not doing that you're already a pretty good leader, but also how to be like how to lead by following you know, like, hey, the boss says this, I've been the boss, I know what it's like to not get what I need. Let me make sure they get what they get and get what they need. What kind of staff member was how, like, how did he lead from the staff position?
Mike Guardia 26:09
Well, he learned from the staff position, I think, first and foremost by really seeking out the higher ups that were the most knowledgeable and also the most approachable. One of the stories that he related to me was when he was a young paratrooper in occupied Japan. You know, here he was this young lieutenant among a very distinguished coterie of combat veterans who had been through some meat grinder battles of the Pacific, and he took the opportunity to learn from telling an executive officer, for me, his name was major Herbert Mansfield, and said that when I was working for him in the shop, he was the one who really took me under his wing. He was the one who I noticed was the most approachable and the most practical, he may not at all gotten the highest marks. But his level headedness I knew was going to pay dividends for him later on down the line. And if you look and other organizations within the military, you tend to see variations of that dynamic, I can say from personal experiences. When I was a tank platoon leader, there was one of our sister platoons, who had a platoon sergeant who was very knowledgeable, you've been in for a while had done tours in Kosovo had done two tours in Iraq. g7 had a had the biggest rack of fruit salad of anybody in the company. But he was to put it lightly, he just wasn't the nicest person. And he wasn't the type of guy who would truly lead by example, I thought and the junior enlisted, some of the junior stos picked up on that five as well. So you saw all of the junior soldiers gravitate towards another end to with an e6, who was every bit as knowledgeable as certainly more approachable. And you see that dynamic happening a lot, but the rank and file in any organization will tend to gravitate towards a junior or a mid level leader who they think they can put their trust in.
Josh Mantz 28:15
It's all about trust, isn't it? Yeah. You know, I'm completely with you, Mike, that the on the behavior outside, especially I tie this back into their I mean, toxic leadership is the number one thing that I see impacting the emotional and psychological state of service members. You know, it's it's exceptional how far we've come. It's very sad when we see situations like this developed within the military. And you know, we're just like any other organization, I think there's a much higher density of exceptional leaders. We've all got those folks who are not. And you know, one thing that I'm sure you've experienced, I'd love to I'd love to get your thoughts. You know, around the time you're leading a armor platoon and after commission, but like a lieutenant doesn't come into that situation with great humility. Right, and they will get crushed. Right, and as they should, as they should. What was your time like as a Lieutenant?
Mike Guardia 29:13
Well, it was, it was a great learning experience. For me. I was very blessed that I had an incredible platoon sergeant, I will never forget, he and I are still very close friends to this day. Very fun NCO by the name of Sergeant First Class and later Master Sergeant, Sergeant First Class, James Patrick. And if there was ever a man who was meant to be a tanker, a mentor, and just an all around good, good all American Southern boy, Patrick. And, you know, he, he was the right. He was the right combination of toughness, humility and kindness. And he took every opportunity he could to help keep me straight, and really did a great job of looking out for me. I think every platoon leader should be be as lucky to have a platoon sergeant that I did. Of course, yeah, I knew other platoon leaders who were not so fortunate and had platoon sergeants who, frankly, I didn't think were very good and CEOs, and they seem to be more interested in creating a power struggle with their defense than anything else. But it was an incredible experience. For me, a lot of the junior soldiers that I had time were fresh out of basic training. Matter of fact, I think every driver and every loader and my platoon had been in the same basic training cycle together. Wow. So Wow. Yeah. So they, they all knew each other. And I just did what I could to let them know that I wanted to create a tactical family environment. And I took it really as a charge for me to try and make my platoon of community in and of itself. What I would do when we were in garrison is I would create or create these little potlucks and I'll create these parties that we would have inside the they and, you know, soldiers wives participate in those and they were strictly professional level events. I did a platoon Secret Santa, you know, for our first Christmas party. And even on multiple occasions, I said, Okay, if, if any of you studs can beat me on the PT test, it will be a $50 gift card to target or a retail establishment of your choice.
Josh Mantz 31:25
How much money did you have to
Unknown Speaker 31:26
fork out? well enough for three of my soldiers to get a 303 points ahead of my own store? Yeah, yeah, there you go.
Pete Turner 31:34
We made a deal with our commander. So first off, let me just say, as a counterintelligence agent, we're often authorized separate rats, we get an allowance for food for the audience. But that usually happens only when you're married and not for the rest of the army. And so in our unit, everybody who was projected out to a field office when we were in garrison, they all got separate rations, because they, you know, we're working and doing things on our always doing things. So commanded, we went to him and said, Hey, listen, we have to go to the chow hall. We're the only ones in the unit that are required to do that. He's like, Yeah, not my problem, like, well, but it sucks. Like, we have to channel every day and it sucks. And he's like, I could do it. And we're like, all right, how about this, you read up the chow hall every day, every meal for a week. And if you can't make it, we asked the 10 of us we all get separate rations. And he made it literally half a day. And he held up his into the bargain. So it's, it's those are good. Those are good leadership tools. I mean, getting someone to buy it on something, you know, dude, extra PT, you know, you're trying to get young guys capable of running a tank. You know, sure. You don't know anything. You're in LT but you do know how to lead people, you don't come with nothing in the tank, you've got some some skill. So it's great to see that you are creative and go right to the pocketbook and get these get these privates up to speed I wanted to ask you about Joe Galloway, have you had much interaction with him? He's actually going to be on the show, probably next month, I had,
Unknown Speaker 33:00
you know, Joe Galloway was an incredible asset. He went so many pictures to all three books that I did pertain to how more I had the chance to speak with him at length at how Moore's funeral, which was a beautiful ceremony, I completely befitting the hero, and Joe and I will trade the occasional barbs on Facebook, here and there. And yet he he is just an incredible guy he brings brings such a deep introspection to what the troops that I drank base there and you know, is really, I think, to Joe's everlasting credit, he uses the chance to share his feelings almost as a form of therapy. And I'm glad that he's able to share his thoughts, you know, with the broader public.
Pete Turner 33:47
If there wasn't a Joe Galloway, would there be a hallmark?
Unknown Speaker 33:50
Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm sure of it. I just think that Joe Galloway did such an incredible job of amplifying everything that how more had to contribute, not only to that battle, but, you know, to the greater body of literature to ensure you know that that story doesn't die. No.
Pete Turner 34:08
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it helps to have Joe there to break him out of the military community into a bigger thing. But yeah, that's that's a great answer. I wanted to sort of shift focus here in the last little part of the show. And I wanted to ask Josh, a question, Josh, when you're out in the civilian world, I mean, civilian roads don't they don't have a p O, DC. They don't have an officer basic course, they don't have all these areas where we're specifically focused on developing job skills, as well as leadership skills. How does how impact your work as you go to give these skills to corporations, because it's just it's not something that you they tend to promote someone who has success, whether that success is by design or by accident?
Josh Mantz 34:51
broadly, it's, it's one advantage of the military. And I'm not sure if this was intentional, or just unfolded that way. And somebody mentioned it earlier, I'm not sure if it was you, Peter, or Mike. But we rarely are in the same assignment for more than two years, before shifting around, and the next assignment could be completely different than the former. So I always think that's one of the most amazing things about the military in terms of its overall leadership development program, just by default, because when I go into a brand new team, new circumstances, new location, I'm back at this position where I really am coming in with a bit of a blank slate. And and I have to purge that unit with melody, I have to learn the skill sets and strength leader and I have to cultivate new, I may have to cultivate new leadership skill sets, in order to adapt to that organization. So on the corporate side, programs like that aren't very common, it's much harder to to accomplish something like that. However, there are things that we can do that continue to recommend push and have have implemented which is like rotational development programs are really effective inside of companies, if a company will put the resources behind it, you know, what happens if we take an engineer, you know, for in a manufacturing environment, what happens if we take a design engineer and put them on a production line for a day? And vice versa? Right, because, you know, really deepening our perspective of leadership is really all about that word. It's about perspective. Right, and kind of putting people in uncomfortable unfamiliar situations that force them to respond and, and, and rise up to a new level. I don't know how you feel about that, Mike.
Mike Guardia 36:34
Yeah, you know, I think that it's good for any leader to rotate around a few different positions really to learn how the organization as a whole works, it was something that I could relate to, somewhat because after, after a 13 month tour, as a tank platoon leader, I was suddenly made a battalion us for knowing absolutely nothing about logistics. I mean, I came in with a complete blank slate I was, I was put in the position really, because I was in your ranking first in the Senate. And I was replacing the captain that had gone on to bigger and better things. And I just looked at, I looked at the 9294 in my charge, and just told myself, okay, guys, I'm a sponge, and I'm ready to absorb anything you all can tell me. You know, to that point, as far as I knew, every time I needed you, every time I needed food every time I needed ammunition. You know, as far as I was concerned, it just magically appeared, I didn't really give much thought into the logistical process that made all of my assets available, I gotta tell you pound for pound. And I say this with a guarded tongue pound for pound, the end of Italian us for was the best job in the army that I ever had. It, he gave me a chance to work with a very tight knit team, I was given clear parameters and clear guidance. And I was able to use my creativity and my imaginative thinking, to great effect, which, you know, of course, in some jobs I've had in the army, my creativity has been rewarded. And in other aspects, my creativity got me in trouble.
Pete Turner 38:17
When you deployed when you were a four, or were you in garrison,
Mike Guardia 38:21
not as before? No.
Pete Turner 38:22
Okay. That's what I give the audience some color on this, because it's interesting, because, you know, I've sat in staff rooms all the time watching commanders run their show and seen a variety of styles of leadership. But there is like, there's so there's Mike the tanker, you know, like, just getting down this command time. And now he's gotta go, he's got to go provision the unit. And if you're deployed, and there's something that isn't right, and there's something always not right, when you're deployed, you're always short on something that's hard to get, because it's just it's hard to get. And so the unit I was in, we just, we weren't technically authorized a full ration for lunch, we're supposed to be Mr. Reese, and the colonel sock, we're going to make this happen. And the four before had kind of laid the, the the supply guy before had laid the groundwork to make it so that we could have, you know, some higher level of food than that, because really, our camp, it wasn't right. For that it was it was more of a logistical error to have us categorize this way. But we kept getting brown lettuce. And so the colonel, after like four weeks of being briefed on brown lettuce, he looks over at the floor, and this guy is, you know, 24 years old, and he's trying as hard as he can just go fix it, you know, and sure enough lieutenants like, that was the guidance that he needed, just the frustration and the anger. And the boss is like, I don't and the thing is, is I go into the the boss's room afterwards, and we're talking about this stuff. And he's like, I already know how to fix this problem. I know where office to call in Atlanta to get to, you know, but the thing is, is he couldn't get that Lieutenant to move. So after trying several different tools to get them to figure out how to solve it. He just used a grunt, and just laser beam eyes to get that guy to fix it. And sure enough, he figured it out. Yeah.
Mike Guardia 40:11
The chips are down. Yeah, I think that's when the learning curve starts to get the speakers.
Pete Turner 40:16
Yeah, for sure. I just have one more question for you. When you look at what how has contributed to the corporate sector? What do you think is the big lesson that is the hardest for because you're a reservist, you know, you know, people in the corporate world? What's the hardest thing for them to get about his lessons? Because it's easy to say, you know, go be a great leader, but the hard lessons are the or the area where you grow the most?
Mike Guardia 40:38
Right? What the? That's a very good question. And I'm actually glad you asked it, I think, if I could distill it down to one broad concept that I think doesn't get the attention it needs, is that a workers performance very often reflects the attitude of his leadership. And that tends to be something that a lot of leaders, both in and out of the military don't seem to realize, many, many years ago, someone told me that you attract more flies with honey than with vinegar. And, you know, while there is a certain context, a certain place and time for, you know, raising your voice, a few octaves and digging into people when they need it, you always do attract more flies with honey than with vinegar, and the performance of your of your workforce improves exponentially in correlation to how good of an attitude their leader actually has. And the corollary to that is that the people who are underneath you, in any organization, you know, they all have different ways of processing information. And they all have different speeds at which they process information. You know, there seems to be an unfortunate default mentality that if, if an employee doesn't quite doesn't quite interpret the directions correctly the first time or doesn't produce what you're looking for the first time that that employee is either not motivated, or that they're somehow stupid. Well, the thing that I think more leaders need to zero in on is that employees, followers, subordinates, whatever you want to call them, they process information differently, and they process it at different speeds. And the two examples that I can give that, in closing, is that I can bring two employees in front of me. And I can tell both of them, draw me a picture of a blue shirt, one guy draws a picture of a sky blue polo shirt, and the other guy draws a picture of a navy blue teacher, well, neither gentlemen is wrong, they just performed the task according to how they interpreted the instructions, and nine times out of 10, I guarantee every leader will find that when the outcome is not what they want, it is because the instructions weren't quite clear enough to a point where the other person
Unknown Speaker 42:59
could
Mike Guardia 43:01
understand it and internalize it. And the last example, I have about of the different speeds of processing, you know, sometimes when you're getting a lot of information and a lot of instructions, you know, some of it just gets lost in translation. You know, for instance, you have two guys one with a high processing speed, the other with a low processing speed. I asked them both the same question, who was the first President of the United States? The guy with the high processing speed answers me immediately? Oh, yeah, that was George Washington. But the guy with the slow processing speed has to break it down with it says don't tell Okay, well, who talking about a person was means it's in the past probably already dead. First means he was number one, President of the United States. Oh, yeah. That's George Washington. But by the time he answers that question, the other fellows already moved on to the third topic. Bit over simplified, but, you know, that just is illustrated, you know, the different processing speeds people have.
Josh Mantz 44:04
Are you right on those are great examples, Mike. I mean, it's, it's leadership is is it's never like a canned thing. That's the say, you know, it's dynamic. And and each individual person responds to each situation slightly differently. And our role is to be able to unlock the best of that to allow them to flourish and to allow the team to flourish. Pino are kind of curious Mike, what's what's next for Mike guardia.
Mike Guardia 44:30
Alrighty, well, I'm glad you asked. So, this upcoming year, as a matter of fact, November 1 of this year, I will be releasing a book titled American armor in the Pacific that is part of a part of casements illustrated series, just highlighting the tank battles in the Pacific Theater of World War Two, as well as a as well as a book called dangerous forward, which is a biography of a gentleman name. I'm not sure if you heard of him, but he's a West Point grad class of 1950, decorated for heroism in Korea awarded the Distinguished Service process the Battle of songs train, and later became the chief architect of the infamous pentagon papers. Oh, yeah. And not only that, went on to went on to be the commander of stealth calm, when we had troops in Grenada, and also down in El Salvador.
Josh Mantz 45:29
I don't think a very, very interesting read man.
Pete Turner 45:33
Yeah, Yeah, that'd be great. come back and talk to us about that book, would you? Absolutely. It'd be my pleasure, Pete. Oh, that'd be great. And maybe we'll have john McKay. Come on, because he knows a lot about that era, and, and that part of the world. So that'd be awesome. Everybody should go to Amazon and support Mike yard, his books, and that you have had worked with Amazon is Go on, buy the book, but make sure you leave the five star review, and then do a little quick review. But not to be long, doesn't really even matter much what you say. Just write something in there. Because that that bumps the book up on the charts. It lets people find it. And look, if you don't know about how more stuff or you've seen the movie, that's all you know about him. Let me tell you right now, how more I think, without exception, and this is one of the few people like this military is is revered for his ability to lead and adapt and do things like yeah, invent a way to fix a division, you don't just go up and show up and fix a division. I mean, that's that's give or take. It's 25,000 people. It's a town that's in full civil unrest. And people are being killed while you're trying to fight a war. And his his orders are go on Fuck that. And so it's how is worth your time if you want to develop the ability to lead and understand these things. And God bless you, Mike for telling that story. Because I just can't get enough how more I just think it's great. And thank you so much for doing it.
Unknown Speaker 46:55
No, it is my pleasure, brother. It certainly was an opportunity of a lifetime.
Unknown Speaker 47:00
Yeah, man. And thanks for and I mean this with as much sincerity as I can possibly give you. But thank you for having the courage to pursue your passion, pursue the field of history and bringing these lessons to the forefront so people can start processing what they're extremely Nate through that lens. So thank you. Thank you, john.
Mike Guardia 47:21
Absolutely, very well. Thank you both. I mean, it has been an absolute pleasure to speak with both of you today. And I give the both of you the highest salutations and props for what you guys do.
