COL John McKay - Surveying Arabs and Islam

COL John McKay - Surveying Arabs and Islam - On his third visit with us, COL John McKay (USMC, ret.) sits down with Pete A. Turner to lend his thoughts on Tim Mackintosh-Smith's new book The Arabs - a Three Thousand Year History of Peoples, Tribes and Empires, and how its study could lead to more effective foreign policy (the book is available on Amazon by clicking on the title).  Col. McKay has served our country with a long and illustrious career in foreign policy and is now an adjunct professor of geography at Cal State Univ, Sacramento.
#combat #scholar #arabs #culture #CQ #education #marines #world #internationalrelations #yemen
Arab history
A three-thousand year saga
This book might have helped
Similar episodes: 
Col John McKay
yJohn McKay
​Fred Leland ​

Transcription

Jon Leon Guerrero  0:00  
Hey, this is john Leon Guerrero. Our guest today is john McKay. He's a retired Marine Corps Colonel who amassed a unique body of knowledge that allowed him to make crucial contributions and US foreign policy. We're lucky to have Colonel McKay for his third visit. And the best way to get a primer on him is to listen to his previous episodes. So do yourself that favor. Colonel Mackay sat down with Pete and they talked about Tim McIntosh, his book The Arabs, which itself is voluminous and fascinating, and what it tells us about the Arab people, or more importantly, what it reveals about our failure to fully understand cultural history, and the nuances that drive some of their attitudes and decisions. ​

Jon Leon Guerrero  0:00  
Hey, this is john Leon Guerrero. Our guest today is john McKay. He's a retired Marine Corps Colonel who amassed a unique body of knowledge that allowed him to make crucial contributions and US foreign policy. We're lucky to have Colonel McKay for his third visit. And the best way to get a primer on him is to listen to his previous episodes. So do yourself that favor. Colonel Mackay sat down with Pete and they talked about Tim McIntosh, his book The Arabs, which itself is voluminous and fascinating, and what it tells us about the Arab people, or more importantly, what it reveals about our failure to fully understand cultural history, and the nuances that drive some of their attitudes and decisions. While we set expectations and make policies that impact that region, impacting our own region. We are promoting our favorite craws, save the brave, and you can read about them at save the brave.org. And that event, coming up is the seminar Liedtke Memorial golf tournament at the Temecula Creek Golf Course. On October 4. Now save the brave is a certified 501 c three nonprofit organization dedicated to helping veterans cope with post traumatic stress. You can register for the tournament, it saved the brave.org slash event. And that link will be on our website as well. We also urge you to help us by rating and reviewing the breakdown show, especially if you like us and go to iTunes or Google Play or Spotify or wherever you listen to find podcasts like ours, and give us that five star rating and review. And back with us for a third time. And we hope the third of a long series of visits Of course, he's now an adjunct professor of history at California State University Sacramento Hornets, a friend of the show and someone whose insight and experience will never get enough of around here. Our guest today, Colonel john McKay.

Joel Manzer  1:58  
Lions Rock Productions

Unknown Speaker  2:03  
This is James. This is Jordan. Dexter from the

Unknown Speaker  2:07  
naked Sebastian youngsters, Rick moronic Dorito. But this is this is this goes back to

Unknown Speaker  2:12  
Gabby Reese 

Jon Leon Guerrero  2:13  
This is Jon Leon Guerrero

Pete Turner  2:15  
 And this is Pete a Turner.

john mckay  2:19  
This is john McKay. And once again we're on the break it down show.

Niko Leon Guerrero  2:25  
And now the break it down show with john Leon Guerrero and Pete a Turner.

john mckay  2:32  
IC to pushing you as a commander, both in person and then symbol have to be able to do is to instill a sense of commonality within all these disparate groups, the sense of commonality of mission, and maybe not to the extent that you have mutual support, but you have mutual understanding. And you're able to based on that combination quality of mission, you're able to allow them the independence, to execute that mission, as their particular environment dictates. And of course, that takes some, some, some survive on the part of the local unit commander, that he's able to read the tea leaves properly. And that would be another part of my leadership role would be able to have competence, and all of these disparate group leaders, and yet be able to is still that commonality of purpose. And the idea that they are responsible for producing what they've been sent out to produce, find out whatever, and you rely on them for that specific thing. But you rely on the whole, to put together something that is much larger than these disparate groups are separately, if you can instill that sense of commonality would be one of the things I would strive for. The other thing would be, I know I put too much emphasis on personality, and the military tries, particularly at lower ranks, your company, great officers, we're all in this together. Personality doesn't matter, you got to be professional, well, personality does matter. And if you're a commander, and you don't have competence, let's say you have 11 groups out there you have competence and nine of them, that's fine, what do you do with the others? And then you come up with the the challenge and it is a challenge? Do you grow them and and and curry and stroke these two? Or do you get rid of them? And, you know, try to get orient dimension to where they're supposed to be? It's a challenge I would The only thing I can compare it to and unfortunately I never talked doing about that much was when my father commanded the 300 and first CB battalion in the Pacific. And it's not even a footnote of history. That was the only dredging battalion in the Pacific that it was a Navy CB battalion and he had dredges at na and open Alma. They actually moved the dredges into Naha, while they were still fighting the Japanese had dredges, he had a dredge insipid dredger, tinny, and they were had to do planning for if they were going to land in Japan, anticipating the Japanese would mind or destroy the harbors, and I can't remember, it was 20 anti pan, and we talk and Guam kept that dredges in Guam from the fall of Guam and 1943. But, you know, not only is are these disparate groups, but there's considerable costly equipment involved in all this. And how do you pull that together? I don't have the answer. And unfortunately, never talked to my father about it. But it would be a challenge, but I have never, unfortunately, I would say been patient with that, Joe.

Pete Turner  6:20  
Yeah. And I'd never considered that challenge. You know, because I'm, I'm a boots on the ground guy. I'm a Ford ensure we're age peers, me and the captain is above me, because I'm 25 years old or whatever. 26 at the time, but any for doesn't talk to a captain certainly didn't talk to the colonel, you know, especially in what I'm, I don't know, 50 miles away from him. And I thought about all the different places we could be, well, we are embedded with the Russians and or the Swedes, or the polls. And then what they don't want is someone else's commander, even if it's a captain, especially a captain, like what the hell are you doing here? Like, well, these are my guys. I'm going to come check them out. Yeah, well, not not on the Polish camp or not, you know, or whatever, right? Because they could see that the Polish commanded by you know, anti climatic get off my camp.

john mckay  7:02  
Right? And then you leave it so

Pete Turner  7:05  
yeah. And then how much do you I mean, you're looking at the Intel products coming in and and someone's saying, hey, team five just isn't getting it. Maybe then you go to deal with it. Maybe team sevens, you know, attached commander is raging at them and you getting a lot of stuff coming down. But yeah, I bet you just spend a lot of your time dealing with the problems and then dealing with the home organization. Hey, this is Pete real quick, I just want to let you guys know, we are proud to announce our official support of save the brave, a certified nonprofit 501 c three, with a charter of helping veterans with post traumatic stress. Here's how you can help go to save the brave, calm, click on the link on the website. And my recommendation is this subscribe, give him 20 bucks a month, you've got subscriptions, you can turn off right now that you're not using that or $20 a month, swap that out, get involved. Let's help these folks out. I bet you just spend a lot of your time dealing with the problems and then dealing with the home organization because the captain can't just go run around to 17 different locations, he'd be gone all the time.

Unknown Speaker  8:11  
And we go back to what we've discussed, particularly the last session, this business, being able to culture rate yourself to whether you with the Ukrainians tap the polls, the Russians, the Swedes. I mean, that is hell talk about disparate groups. Yeah. I mean, not in a derogatory fashion. But these people come from different cultures. They do. Oh, we got a common mission. Yeah, we don't do it that way. Yeah, you got to put yourself into that. Yeah, process and have to do it well to be effective.

Pete Turner  8:47  
Yeah, there's so many very, I mean, you think about the variables in general. And granted, this is bosnia turned out to not be this really high impact kinetic fight, we didn't know that going in. So you have to deal with not only your own immediate team leaders capacity to do the job, which is really unknown, because we weren't a unit that did this job, we really had no train up, we watched a video on how to drive in a winner 15 times. Like, whenever Yeah, and maybe did some role plays, but you are no way really prepared. Just kind of so if you as a leader are cowed by the sweetest battalion commander, it's like you're not going out my battle space. You can work on this camp, you can burn this poo, run your life, but we don't learn. It's on that leader to figure out how to work with the the local environment and either work within it or get out of it, you know, so and it's all of these things inhibit the battalion brigade division, you know, all the different level commanders like your whole dead spot here in your tactical capacity.

Unknown Speaker  9:48  
And then what? I'm not putting you on the spot, but what about the, and again, it was reported in the press, but I happened to have a colleague who British that was with the Ukrainian Battalion, doing some interesting things, but became aware early on that they were running prostitution. So what do you do there? Yeah. Hey, coach, this is going on to that inhibit your mission. Do you become a tattletale persona non grata? Yeah, nobody talks to you. And yet, there's no criminal activity going on?

Pete Turner  10:24  
Yeah, it there was a beautiful Bosniak young lady that worked in our camp. And you know, we had screened her and talk to her, and you know, she's No, no threat to us, we don't care. And then it turned out that she was, you know, a prostitute. And we had a long conversation within our team, because you can't let that get out until we decide how we want to approach it. And ultimately, we're like, this is a local command issue. Not our issue has nothing to do with she's not a spy. She's not No, you know, operationally. Yeah. And we had no indication that she was trying to like, because our main concern is, is there someone trying to collect on us? And of course, there is somewhere but how dangerous is it? Does that require your attention? Or should we be out forward collecting? It was a long heated conversation on the team as we tried to sort through what we do, because some of us in our field are very law enforcement driven. I'm not, I would rather be out collecting trying to find out about them and worrying have them worry about us projecting out then their attention anywhere near the camp, not to ignore that, but I'd rather be their problem that are them be our problem. How did you resolve? Well, I was before, so I only had a say. But ultimately, we resorted just let the local commander who's a colonel he knows how to handle that stuff. We let them handle it. And then just said, if there's anything that's Intel related, let us know. And then we didn't even report it up through our chain. Because that just opens that. That could come back at her our boss, but you know, I'd like to relax. We're just not going to say it. And I'm probably I don't recall, specifically, but I'm almost hundred percent sure. We told him we're not going to report this on our side will let you guys handle it. Know that it's that delicate, and that has nothing to do with operational.

Unknown Speaker  12:09  
But ensure screw up. Yeah, as you say, yeah, word gets out and the wrong person gets all of it.

Pete Turner  12:16  
Yeah. And it's the fifth incidents in the commanders like, why is this happening? You know, and all of a sudden, that Colonel who was in line for a star is now sweating his star, and that's bad for everybody.

john mckay  12:26  
Or maybe sweating his position?

Pete Turner  12:29  
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Unknown Speaker  12:30  
Really, really? Well, yeah. Yeah. No trust and confidence in your ability to carry out your mission?

Pete Turner  12:35  
Yeah. Because someone's having some force having sex. And you're

Unknown Speaker  12:38  
an older woman, you? Yeah, some of your people have hired I mean,

Pete Turner  12:44  
yeah, just interesting to talk to someone from your past and get a sense for what their job was. You know, it's one of the fun things about doing these column Spy vs spy shows where we talk shop about all the complexities of being a collector, you know, whether it's someone who's tactical collecting, like you guys would do on the ground, or someone who's more a more sophisticated machine like me, or someone who, later on my name's Eric, later on the commander that I had, he worked like, for a sub team of a subsection over in the cellar of a backdoor team, but they were really good at what they did. And so they actually had their finger on the pulse of al Qaeda, before 911, you know, like, there's a problem coming. And here are the areas where the sleepers and they use them, you know, an AI type system to identify these things. And they're like, this is a real thing. But the problem is, is there a sub team back in the corner, and you know, they didn't have the influence to, to really raise any kind of credible alarm? Even if you know, the more you swing your arms, the more than like, You're crazy, right? So it's just that the whole Intel world is so complex, you know?

Unknown Speaker  13:50  
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think history is replete with examples of not picking the right piece of Intel and suffering. dire consequences original.

Pete Turner  14:03  
Let's use that as our segue because I want to talk about that book over there. And hopefully, we get the author on the show sometime next month, but it's called Arabs.

Unknown Speaker  14:11  
And Well, there you have to, I think, the full title, although wordy, is worth noting, because it does tell you what the books about. And it is Arabs of 3000 year history of people's tribes, and empires. So that is not in any way important. Before we go take on a Middle Eastern fight. I mentioned to you before you came up, I this book came out this year. Yeah. I would love to meet the author. I taught a course. Last semester at California State University Sacramento. It was the first time the course had never been taught. I put it together. And I taught it by myself. I did speak to some of them when faculty members they were in political science they were in in history. And my course was titled, geography of the Middle East and live on. And I did teach geography but I taught with more emphasis of the interaction between geographical locations and the human humanity that occupies or doesn't occupy space. And I remarked to you, I sure wish I'd read this book. Before I talk. There's another book that I'm surprised that if I get to talk to Tim McIntosh, man, I'm going to ask him why there was a book that came out in the 50s 52, I think, during the Korean War by a British woman that was titled Britain's moment in the middle each. And it's a very specific book, because it deals with a little known part of history, that there were terrible riots rocked when the British tried to reestablish their mandate, per the riverside treaty. And, you know, that was under the old adage, spheres of influence. Oil had not become the critical element. But Elizabeth Monroe's book, Breton's moment in the Middle East details is, and the lead up to it the pre World War Two, treatment of the indigenous people by the Brits, the sort of superior client subject, attitude towards the Iraqis. And in 19 2021, there were terrible riots, and a lot of people got killed and us era up, and the bombs over these tribes in dead submission. And I had read the book, maybe for the United States, jumped off in March of 99. Three, you know, to topple Saddam Hussein, and to, quote, bring democracy to the Middle East. And I said, I don't think anybody on the policymaking team ever read this book, because we're going in making the same mistakes, the Brits, and I would say, I wish I'd read this book, Tim Mackintosh Miss book, before I taught my course. And if I'm asked to teach, which I'm sure I will be, this will become a critical part. Because it is the first book in English that I read, it doesn't try to cycle analyze your second guess it talks about a group of people that is very, very unique. And I think, by virtue of the fact that Tim McIntosh Smith has lived, lived, I mean, not traveled, didn't stay at the Hilton, Brian lived Asana. Yeah, hey, man for 30 years, and by the way, continues living Yeah. And speaks right reads both classical and street Arabic. Now, classical Arabic is not really spoken anymore. But this depth of knowledge to a subject that, in my opinion, the United States knows nothing about. And it's a shame. Because you talk about being in ci, look at ci and say, Wow, we know this about the Bosnians. We know this about the Muslims. We know this about the Serbs. There's a class in the armor here. And let's explain it, I don't think we have people that are knowledgeable enough in Policymaking and operational positions to say, to have enough knowledge to say this is the claims in the arm. Yeah. And we go in with euphemistic, we're going to democratize democratize the Middle East. Well, good one.

Pete Turner  19:02  
Yeah, I mean, just the title alone, you know, and I feel like I'm fairly well versed. I've talked to thousands of Arabs. I didn't realize they had a 3000 year history, I immediately reject that. Because I'm told that it's only you know, 800 years old, or whatever it is.

Unknown Speaker  19:17  
Well, this year they are. This is Elizabeth Monroe breezes out, does not emphasize in their book, Britain's moment in the Middle East. The fact that the Arab history is rich before Muhammad. Yeah. Okay. You look at Yemen. I mean, this was a major outpost of the Roman Empire. He points out several times, and they're still shooting outside my window. I mean, he says it's in the book.

Pete Turner  19:46  
Yeah. Actually, as he's writing it today. Yeah, they're fighting right now.

Unknown Speaker  19:50  
Yeah. And yet, gaming was considered in Latin. You know, the blush of land is before Mama's before Christianity in the center, the coming of Jesus. And why don't we know that? Yeah. And, you know, one of the dams that was built, BC

Pete Turner  20:14  
was considered

Unknown Speaker  20:18  
one of the wonders of the world, it was so large, and, unfortunately, between inter-communal stripe and not maintaining it, there, he's got some pictures in the thing was humongous. And you say, how did these people were able, you know, where the majority of people you run into in the United States? You know, their Campbell drivers ragged edge? Or, you know, one of those Yeah. And yet, you know, they have an extremely rich history. And the fact that really written Arabic really did not at all until the Quran, huh.

Pete Turner  21:03  
Yeah, that's remarkable. Yeah, I don't have a power or any kind of command on the nine knowledge of Yemen, other than just a few few factoids that likely aren't true.

Unknown Speaker  21:13  
Well, again, I British colleagues are different was in Bosnia, but but British falling and spent five years down there, and this was after the turnover. Yeah, you know, but but and he was an Arabic speaker, he said, is one of the most beautiful countries you've ever seen? He said, yes, there's desolate parts of it. There's poverty, there's old. But he said, there's other parts already. So I can see what the Romans fell in love with. Yeah, you should. It's gorgeous. What else did you pull out of this book. For the listeners, this thing is two and a half inches thick. First of all, it gave me a familiar already don't, I can't say I'm an expert sharp gave me a familiarity of pre Islam, Arab world. And the miracle really, of what Muhammad was able to pull off. And he convinced tribes that 400 years had been at each other's throats, that he makes a clear distinction between those that are nomadic, that the better one, and those that became sedentary. And and there's a risk there. And ER, use that riff exists today. Now, yes, there's been monetization. Most people are shuttled. But they feel better ones nomadic in Saudi Arabia, Syria, that was in Palestine when I was there. Yeah. Not much Rome, and you got the Israelis with a stick over your head all the time. But they're, they're my my translator. And when I was working with the Pelosi was a better one. I mean, it wasn't my grandfather, used to hurt Campbell's in the desert. It was my father still does sheep in the desert. And, you know, he moves every three months. Yeah, this is something we fantasize about the Old West or something, or the American Indians. Yeah. Right. But this is happening today. And that, that rift between, you know, the shuttled, and the nomadic, the interpretation, the different interpretations of Islam, you know, under the opposite odds, and under the mine, yes, yeah. And the flourishing of the art under the opposites, of written beautiful Arabic. And, and, you know, I've always maintained based on my time in Spain, all you have to do is go down to the quarter the parts of should be where the Spanish government has been very good at maintaining the Muslim presence. Now. These were amazingly talented people. But he is also, I think, fairly clear that Islam has been a unifying factor that has not been able to unify people that does not want to be,

Pete Turner  24:16  
yeah, when I think about Islam and its role in the world, you know, you compare and contrast with Judaism, and Christianity. And, you know, in the, in the Christian faith, you had this reformation, you had a schism, and then, you know, we had to work on things. And so the Catholic Church kind of went their way, but it sort of resolved it, you know, in a lot of ways, it healed itself took a long time, a lot of blood, lot of blood. And it seems like we just haven't had that moment. And I think Judaism had all that stuff, you know, so long ago that, you know, there's sex, but there are a lot more mature, I guess, in their faith, I suppose. I don't want a little bit more harmonious in their relationships, and the other the others, and I'm not going to go into this because he does a good job of it. But very detail is the splits help within Islam. Shin. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  25:09  
And and how that has, has been a major bone of contention. And yet, how different empires been able to manipulate that in their own show ventures for preservation.

Pete Turner  25:27  
Yeah. I wanted to ask you about that. Because one of the things I learned in Iraq from dealing with the Iraq is ok, we are a very Western nation before all this happened. girls wear mini skirts, I always said that girls wear mini skirts, we went to discos, we did all these things. We're not a religious people. Yes, we're, we're Islamic. But, you know, we, we drank, we smoked, you know, and we did all these things. So when you guys look at us and think this is some kind of sectarian thing, its political, you know, the Sudanese had power is so different. I had to reframe my thinking into black and white, black folks and white folks. Because if you are the power structure, the quote unquote, white folks, the Sunni's, then you know, you have the education you have the opportunity, you should be the governor, you should be the mayor, because you went to the London School of Economics and all these things. Meanwhile, the sheer like, well, if that's how it's going to be Screw you, we're not going to participate. We're going to go do our own thing. We don't have a chance anyhow. And then you get this social you know, Club, which we are these guys are separate and absolutely antagonistic towards each other. It just so happens that it's on this religious line. It's not on you know, some kind of divide religiously at least not for the all of the rocky that nearly every a rocky I talked to said this, this is more about a class a political structure, as opposed to a religious one.

Unknown Speaker  26:50  
And I think to support that a person that has interested me for a number of years, is temporarily and Okay, now, without being derogatory or disrespectful. Tamar lane fought for Islam, but I would say that he was a nominal Muslim, because he was able to use the Quran to further his own. Yeah, Empire ambitions. And here's a man that deported Southern Uzbekistan in December, when he was 72 years old to go conquer India. Now, if you ever spend a time in the central Soviet Republic or former central Soviet Republics, winter is not a real happy time. And if you're going to go by horse back over the Himalayas, to campus capture India, he died, he died very sick of pneumonia. But 72 years old, I mean, what kind of people are these? And he's put on his horse and she get a hobby. I'm collect stamps match book covers? Yeah. He's not the only guy trying to take over India. To me, it's India is a hard place to be interesting, very interesting. I never knew this. How Islam one into southern India, peacefully, by the way. And the other thing that again, I think there's a lack of vision on the part of so many Americans. If you take a look at the Muslims of say, Indonesia, yes, there's violence. Sure. But it's not the same as the Muslims in the Middle East. Okay. And then the schism of the Bedouin, and the sedentary doesn't exist in Indonesia in the sense that it does on the Saudi Arabia. Interesting, and and why aren't people that are in positions to be dealing with these few looking at these types of things? crafting? Why don't we have people that speak Arabic? I know, we've gone around that boy a couple of times, sure. 

Pete Turner  29:06  
But what about, like the seminal figures in Islamic and Arabic history? Like how Khazali you know, who creates this, and I don't want to put it all on him, but he is you have to understand his impact on the Arab culture, to understand the God fearing fatalistic attitude a lot of folks have

Unknown Speaker  29:29  
very, very true. And the other thing that I was vaguely familiar with, was it even today? The importance of poetry. Yeah. And who the gentleman just now the solid was a great poet. Yes. And, I mean, it's not cutting line, sarcastic poetry, but it's written in such a way that it's very cutting. Yeah. And it's common carry on the blues, why? I bring what others don't have.

Pete Turner  30:06  
There's a lot of disregard for the poetry part. I've experienced it. I'm guilty of it, you know, with us say our poetry is the best poetry. Yeah, that's nice. You know, and just you and we have, I have no appreciation of poetry in general. But it never, it never occurred to me to have a command over what that meant for them. And I'm like, I'm some kind of cultural expert, by me, never even considered to be something that I could at least see if not leveraged my advantage.

john mckay  30:35  
blindsided,

Pete Turner  30:36  
yeah, and I heard them say it over and over again. And I just absolutely stonewalled that over and over again. And I you know, it's almost embarrassing to get that wrong over and over again. And I know it's important. I know now, especially if I finally got it through my head.

john mckay  30:52  
Well, the translator I referred to the bedroom and translator Coquille was his name. And here just married when we worked. We worked for a year together. I mean, it was funky situations. I mean, we'd sleep on the ground and Gaza at that time, I could go into Gaza go into the West Bank down I go any place I want in the West Bank, I always go and here just married absolutely gorgeous girl live down and I think he's still there. Donna Rafa, right on the Egyptian border, where all the tunnels are. I was fortunate enough to be invited to their house three times. And he would sit down report. And I'm very ashamed to say I don't know Arabic. Yeah. But the sensuousness of the rhythm of the way he read it? Yeah. I mean, there was three of us in the room. You know, one, like, you know, karaoke song. Yeah. But I'm saying he would, and his wife and he would laugh at something. And then he'd say, Well, what he's saying is that, and you know, you see how clever, yeah, how clever. And where do you find that? In the Western world? Yeah. I mean, I think there's some areas in our Western to that poetry might be appreciate a little bit more than others. Yeah, I've always. I've always, I mean, since I was, even before I went to the Academy, I was drawn to poetry. Number one, my grandfather, who was Scott loved Robbie burns. Okay. Robert Burns, right. And so, he would read Robert Burns to me and I, and before I finished high school, I've still got the book. I mean, it's very old book of Robert Burns. And, you know, that that interests me and then I, I became fixated really a world war one poetry. Particularly when I came back I, I think I mentioned when I was in Vietnam, one of my favorite and I think is probably considered one of the best WAR ONE poets was Wilfred Owen. Wilson or was Lieutenant his poem, dual say, at the core, pro Patreon, moron. Okay, which was one of the pledges of legions. Yeah. Sweet and proper is that I died for my country. He uses it. He ends a poem describing a guy dying after a guest and there's a space Yeah, tools

Pete Turner  33:48  
are used to use that in my classes. The word public. This is just an aside, but it's funny. You know, I have no real strength in Latin at all. But if you're in the military, there's enough Latin thrown around that you know that production yes is our country right? Dolce we all know Dolce, because there's so many things or no name sweet something but yeah, the wisdom that comes from trenches You know, I'm a really big fan. Yeah, without Yeah, really fascinated and intrigued by all of the World War One art guys are you know, cuz this really that my friends are listening. If you ever get a chance to go to Kansas City film world war one museum is an incredible event. It's given me chills just thinking about it. The first thing you do when you walk into the exhibit, is you walk you look elevated over a clear, like a clear floor. And you're walking over the poppies that represent all the dead people and you're instantly Gosh, it's hard to even talk about it. They're instantly brought into this thing and you see like these these artisans that are in the in the trenches and their hand crafting the shells, the spent casings into a virgin Mary are incredible things

Unknown Speaker  34:56  
and get back to his book. He is he does a very does incredible job. The British us, but with their complete compliance and desire in the Arab revolt, you know, Lawrence of Arabia, yeah, right. A lot. But you know, strange, strange Oh, the gentleman may have been, he did speak Arabic. Yeah, he understood the people. And he was revered. But even after Versailles, he said, It's hopeless. We could never, ever be able to work properly with them. Because we never do what we say we're going to do.

Pete Turner  35:40  
But we keep doing that. Right.

Unknown Speaker  35:42  
Well, I mean, is it not germane? That 1930 before he killed himself on a motorcycle, yeah. Yeah. No. And that's the other point that I think throughout the book includes up to I mean, shorter ends was Yemen today. Is this continually strive that manages that is both tribal based, encouraged wallets discouraged by the Quran. The split between the Sunni and the Shia, the better one sedentary split. Uh huh. It's one of the things that has been present in Arab history, going back way before. And it's What split it up 30 years after he died or split Islam. And, you know, he doesn't give this big spotlights, roll the drums on the Sunni Sri is split. Yeah, what he does is he highlights the two battles that actually sort of solidified that. Hmm. And it was a power struggle. It wasn't a religious.

Pete Turner  36:55  
So that goes back. That whole idea between class and politics is not necessarily religion goes all the way back.

Unknown Speaker  37:02  
And of course, the Arabs use the inheritance. Was he or she bottom? Was he really chosen? Right? Or is it just because Muhammad said that,

Pete Turner  37:18  
be it? Yeah, you know, it never occurred to me. But you're right, the thing, the thing goes all the way back. So again, for my friends who are listening, all of the people who who ran, you know, the subsequent Muhammad progeny, I guess you would call them they're not all related, but most of them had their heads cut off. Sometimes in battle, sometimes not.

Unknown Speaker  37:38  
He points at how he should the number of leaders religious or otherwise, yeah, that ended violence. Yeah. Or let their lives ended. Why, right. decapitation, yeah, dragging by a camera, and they have some very ingenious way. Yeah. What would it have lessen the shock? of watching somebody be decapitated on TV? Today? Americans know. It's his home? Not if you realize the history. Yeah. Yeah. And violence. And he doesn't dwell on this, but this sort of reestablishment of a qualified, he said, that's another move in the broader history of the Muslim be expand on

Pete Turner  38:26  
that. So I can understand better than me, I know that there's this desire for this for this caliphate. But

Unknown Speaker  38:31  
that is based on an interpretation of Islam. Okay. And that fits into his larger scheme that these justifications, be they divine or otherwise, right, have risen consistently, throughout Arab history. And there was a review in the library supplement by obviously a bread, I think, probably a Muslim lineage that spoke rightfully show were favorably of it. Yeah. But I thought he really went off track. And he said, it's sort of like the English people. Before the Norman conquest. They were just a bunch of tribes around killing each other. And they came together and became an imperial power. Well, I said, ITLSI not going to publish. That hadn't published yet.

Pete Turner  39:25  
I said, right, you gotta do is read Churchill's

Unknown Speaker  39:29  
port volume, the history of the English speaking people. Yes, there was that going on. But there was a consolidation. And that was the idea. The idea of a seeding some sort of governance to democratic rule.

Pete Turner  39:50  
Just Why Why not?

Unknown Speaker  39:52  
What is it about tribal, the tribal nature of tribal nature? I mean, I'm still thinking about that. Yeah, you you've caught me. half off guard. What happened in the United States and 17 1717? Yeah. Why did that happen? How did that work? I think more pertinent question. Is it working today? Will it work in the future?

Pete Turner  40:17  
Yeah, there is that?

Unknown Speaker  40:18  
Yeah. And, you know, he made her one of the reviews i saw i think was in the economist, which was a fairly good review, but it says Mr. Macintosh was is obviously and I Mr. bunk at hot air. I think what he's done, he's rightfully pointed out our life ignorance. Yeah. Of what we go trundling into the soul.

Pete Turner  40:47  
Are you familiar with Michael Owens power, faith and fantasy?

john mckay  40:50  
I have not read it. I am familiar with it.

Pete Turner  40:52  
It's a similar a different but a similar message. You know, we it's it's the history of us with the Middle East. And then How're you know, whether it's missionaries or Marines, you know, marching across, you know, and again, not to disparage any because everybody in their own time is doing their best with what they got. But we just refuse to get this right. refuse, refuse to learn refuse to, in mass get better at it. Maybe you're good at it. Maybe he's good at it. Maybe they're good at it, but has an institution as a country as a service branch. And happening? No, no.

Unknown Speaker  41:26  
And there's, there's a certain hubris that I think is set in this country. Yeah, since World War Two. And, you know, we did well, we've done even better promoting how well we did number two, and what was our total number of casualties? 600,000. Yeah. Russian, for seven to 11 million.

Pete Turner  41:49  
Yeah. Yeah. Different approach different outcomes,

Unknown Speaker  41:52  
and understand, perpetuating the mess of the country. And so much of it is myth. And, and but it is it it is taken for truth. And that is one of the reasons I'm concerned. And that's reason. You know, what, what happened on our declaration of independence? What happened with our constitution? phenomenal miracle. Really? Yeah. And we've been able to, to survive over 200 years with that. But he makes a very telling remark, he said, the British Empire was a stole for not only his fascist, but all the advances that it brought to everybody. It lasted 200 years. Yeah.

Pete Turner  42:34  
Wow. Yeah. Yes, absolutely.

Unknown Speaker  42:40  
And he's talking about the Middle East, you talking about? a? He's talking about a man? He's talking about Iraq? And yeah,

Pete Turner  42:48  
is it that things like the American Revolution, where a country with no budget for a military takes on the biggest, most powerful best military in the world, the wins at that's just dumb luck. You know, that would be World War Two. And ultimately, World War One, that whole package of fighting goes away. But if we will roll the dice again, and try that, again, goes the other way. You know, the Brits are like, let's negotiate.

john mckay  43:10  
I may, I may get some stones thrown here. My take on the British attempt to quell the revolution, of 1775 was not unlike. There's there's great dissimilarities. But it's not like us in Vietnam, in the sense that the British came over here with a sense of absolute superiority, now the head and then defeated Napoleon yet. They had, by the time the war of 1812, of course, battle New Orleans was flooded after Waterloo, but they were dealing with people that had a very strong desire to not remain. And really they weren't in the majority. But they knew the country shied. Yeah, I knew the other people. And the British weren't quite prepared for that. Yeah. American Revolution. there's a there's a brand new book out on that, which I don't have. But I have to read I have not read. I'm certainly not an expert. I have not read in depth about the American Revolution for some years. But it's an interesting phenomena. But I think what is equally interesting is that we came out of that and adopted a very similar form of government. That is that the people we fought against, yeah. That has not happened in history. Yeah. And you take a look at what the Mongol invasion the destruction of Baghdad, again, you could argue they were nominally Muslim. But they were absolutely, unequivocally about killing everybody.

Pete Turner  45:05  
Hey, this is Pete a Turner from lions rock productions. We create podcasts around here. And if you your brand, or your company want to figure out how to do a podcast, just talk to me. I'll give you the advice on the right gear. The best plan is show you how to take a podcast that makes sense for you that's sustainable, that scalable and fun. Hit me up at Pete at breakdown show. com Let me help I want to hear about it.

john mckay  45:28  
Again, you could argue they were nominally Muslim. But they were absolutely unequivocably about killing everybody. Your women? No, but everybody else. Yeah. Yeah. And how many people know that history of the Middle East? The the attitude that the males got to die? Yeah. And the women are for our use only.

Pete Turner  45:56  
I want to back up and go back to this dumb luck thing. Because let's just say for example, the baton New Orleans happens a couple of technologically advanced years earlier. I'm just saying like if it had happened, like, say, like just, you know, the progress of the battle happens before that, you know, the rifle is as good as it was, you know, because at that time like five years makes a big difference right? 

 the Brits have never faced in a battle man that's got palm trees in it. I don't know if you know this about you. I read this in the book I was fascinated me. The more the Brits shot lead into the palm tree, the more it caught it, because it's not really what it's No, no. Yeah. And it's so became leaden, basically. And so it was like that, you know, what normally might work just, you know, bashing it in didn't it didn't work. And so then they you know, frontal assaulted and the Brits are like, never again, we're never doing that. That's bad plan. But that, like that's a technological advance and a little bit of luck on the fact that those trees were the right kind of trees. I don't know if Andy Jackson knew that.

Unknown Speaker  46:59  
But have you been into the battlefield? And no, it's not a trench line. The rebel trench line is semi kept. But there were a couple of major tactical errors of the British, right? They lost two generals in that battle. Yeah. Plus, people don't realize how long they've been fighting Napoleon. I mean, yeah, they were veteran troops. Right. But a country gets tired.

Pete Turner  47:23  
Yeah. Yeah, it was a political will

Unknown Speaker  47:25  
then or is it? And you know, they had to march through swamps. Gotcha. Gotcha. And I'm not a big fan of Andrew Jackson. Jackson did a masterful Yeah, defense, he really did. And wasn't convinced that he was going to prevail. But on the other hand, again, what we've talked about in the past, who made up the bulk of the force, it was not uniform to my right. It was pirates down it was blacks,

Pete Turner  47:53  
New Orleans,

john mckay  47:54  
it was New Orleans, Creole, everybody.

Pete Turner  47:58  
Yeah. Okay, so I want to get back you kind of close that point before about on the women thing. And women are such an interesting thing in the Arab Islamic world and how how they're treated like the fact that you get to meet your interpreters wife is is exceptional for someone to meet someone's Arab wife and usually they're sequestered off and they're not allowed that kind of thing. Women just recently getting allowed to drive cars and Saudi Arabia you know, these are things that when we talk about equality this shake your head like yeah, we want it we want women to be treated equally and pay the ball Okay, great. But look at this part of the world is so dramatic hundreds of years different.

john mckay  48:38  
You're absolutely right. I remember Gaza and you know, Coolio, always. I did establish a relationship with the head of the police policy that leaves the colonel. We were colleagues were at least three times I'd like to think five times invited to his house, right? level one Oh, no, right. better food chef number two. It was always shows. Crop crushes ran but he had a very nice house that was on the sea. But we'd go in there and he take off his his fire. You could hear women but universal. Yeah. And the speaking was very subdued. Then the plate started. But first. Everybody got comfortable. You'd hook up the hook. Yeah. And then the Johnnie Walker would come? Yes. Yeah. And and I always I wrapped it this up, Mel's always took down a bottle of Black Label for and then we'd sit and we ship for hours at the table. And you could hear the women in the kitchen but not a one was present. Right? But with with Cleveland was different. We ate together. Margo Margot, good friend of ours who BO.

Pete Turner  50:00  
Really Oh, tell me

Unknown Speaker  50:02  
is a fella by yasir fireside, who is an Aquarian dealer in Jerusalem, and well world known. All the lithographs. I have my box from Yasser. Interesting. I became very close with Yasser. And you have to understand the Arab. And Yasser was better one sedentary but better one. But there were hours that I would spend in his shop. Virtual. You went in? And there was the obligatory 30 minutes. How are the kids? Yeah, how's life? How's your family? How's it going? on but he got it. Yeah. And then then there was there was tea or Turkish coffee. And you sit there you just did you talk now? He spoke. Excellent in English. But sons of educated Oxford, we've met two of them. We met the daughter to but I was invited to their house. Yeah. And at that time was that was his wife or his wife. waffle. We did not wear his far. When I went back the second time with Margo, and again, Margo is very, very good with them. And she would spend hours. You didn't say, Hey, I came in looking for sure. Yes, yes. Which most Americans would do. Right? He wanted to talk. Yeah. You didn't talk about anything that was around you. You talked about what's the Palestinian Authority going to do what's Fazal look like? What about Syria? He was a great admirer of the King of Jordan. Had a picture 04 but that was true and and we felt pretty clinic. by Muslim standards. They were they were friendly. One of the boys had been educated. Mario can tell you I think one of the going to Georgetown here, but both of them have gone to Oxford, and he was good looking boys more. But they're also smart because they're operating out of one right

john mckay  52:21  
now. Uh huh.

Unknown Speaker  52:22  
And both of them are very good. at it. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And the daughter.

Pete Turner  52:30  
Yeah. I mean, just gorgeous. Right.

Unknown Speaker  52:34  
And, and, you know, when she went out, she covered that the only person was covered when we were in the house was wafa, she had decided to go back to the traditional way. Sure. Now, she didn't cover faith. Right. But she cooked in church and everything.

Pete Turner  52:52  
I don't know if you're aware of this, but there is a social dialogue that says the job is somehow empowering to women at absolutely contrary to everything I know about, and I don't claim to speak for the entire Middle East, nor can I even define what the Middle East is it isn't. But I don't understand that based on my experience, but the families that I've met and and the way women are treated. I don't I can't understand how being required to have a Squire had been required to cover up because if you're not you're a whore. And I don't understand how that's empowering. Is there something in that book that's written by a Tim Mackintosh myth? That would help me understand that or is that just something that's

Unknown Speaker  53:33  
indirectly? The women? Why would the western press and I say it's a Western press, a highlight, and we automatically, you know, cover eyes look between our fingers, that horrible type thing? Yeah. My experience in Palestine and the Palestinians are unique. they've shared their different. Abad was a police commander, guys. I saw his I think he only had one wife. Somebody said he had to, but the one which was about his age, she was a force to be reckoned with wafa. And he asked, what about this waffle was very demure. She was attractive, not beautiful, but attractive. Always very gracious. She ran that house. Yeah, she told Yasser what to do. She kept the books. Yeah. Okay, so she really ran the house. So did you ever share the shore? Did she ever telling what to shell nutshell now, right. 

Pete Turner  54:38  
But you know, that book that you're sitting next to their benefit that grandma's secrets from the field is one of those books to where you start to understand the real divide, at least in Pashtunistan, between the men and the women and how even in their own culture there there are separate groups. And there is performance that as Benedict, they became more and more cultivated, she was required to do think she had to have a Squire early in her on she wasn't a free Western woman, she had to be covered up, you know, and they would allow her some access, she could go to the male mosque or the mail time for worship, but only just barely, because she started to know better. And so as she got more and more into it, and it's a fantastic like, when you read that and you understand how little we understand about the day to day workings of these people. It's just

john mckay  55:27  
a note critical. absolutely critical in Palestine, Israel, call the I went with polio several times. So last month, there were certain services that women could attend. So what I found very curious about that is it was an orthodox family that I Jewish orthodox, I say what he was a former la cop, but he'd really gone off the deep end. And they lived in orthodox conservative orthodox community, just south drizzle. And and I stayed with him two weekends. That would that was a tour. That was a tour. But she American Jews, obviously both them but absolutely. Do not deviate from what you mean. You go in there. She would light all the candles before sunset on Friday. Yeah, fish can't do work. Right. All the food been cooked. You didn't do dishes. When she had her menstrual, he had opened a bookstore, the book show at first was very interested in Jerusalem. But then he went into the ultra religious stuff. Yeah. And that's when Martin nomadic he looked like an old old man Old Testament prophet. Yeah, the big beard. The Palestinians were Burnham. There were some human had to be killed. He's scared Margot a man. I mean, he's a former cop. But what I find extremely interesting was they adhered to the old ritual, that once her menstrual cycle started, she was actually Yeah, she left the marital bedroom. When it finished? Well, first of all, she could not be seen by men, right? during that period, Riley women could attend to when the cycle finish. She had to have the ritual bath. And it had managed to not be there. Right. How she until she had the ritual bath. And it was determined by whoever, that the cycle terminated, that she was allowed back in the mirror. Yeah. And I said, You know, I went to a Quaker school. My parents were in South America. And I, I figured I chalked up a few more share the two weekends with with Michelle. He changed the name from Michael became Mikhail, right. The two weekends. On Shabbat.

Unknown Speaker  58:08  
I went to temple five times. That's a lot of Temple. No, five times in during ZRO dress. Yeah, yeah, right robot. Yeah. But my point is, the women when they were always Actually, yeah. And they would have these. They weren't in separate rooms. They'd have these curtains where you couldn't see right? They could see you. Huh, but you couldn't see them. But is it wrong to lust? Yes.

Pete Turner  58:39  
This is the part that I do struggle with, with with Islam in particular. I mean, I know that they're Orthodox Jews, and they're certainly very conservative Christians and whatever, I'll stop naming religions now. But that whole idea that just the mere vision or the you know, having a woman walk around with their wrist exposed, modest is one thing, but modesty at the at the end of a stick because you're a hole at what it is.

Unknown Speaker  59:06  
And, you know, I'm I can't remember the name of there's a name in English. When I was at the Quaker school since I baptized. They chose what church I attended on Sunday. And Sundays was a was a three hitter. You had you had chapel in the morning, you had breakfast, you went down to church. And they were very appreciative. They chose the Dutch Reformed nice. It says reform is hardcore. And then you had Vespers in the evening. And the d'etre for I'm always looking for the guy with the long stitch. Yeah. and walked down hit you in the head if you fell asleep. I mean, yes, that type of it's holdover from really the Middle Ages. Yeah. And we want to not have family that he certainly fits the bill as our sanctimonious hypocrite, right. But if a member of the family a female member, an adult female member, is going to be in the house, and his wife's not there. He will go sleep someplace else. But of course, he'll why he beaches why the kids are absolute disasters. You know, I said, Where the hell's His covenant with God? Is it selective? or? Yeah, I'm not getting on religion, but right. People manipulate religion just like that. Yeah, manipulate so much. Hell.

Pete Turner  1:00:41  
Yeah. Yeah. It's like at some point, the ceremony and not to belittle religious practices, you just run out of things you can do well, and if you're going to light candles on Friday, you're given something else up, you know, maybe it's hugging your kid or who knows, right? But there's just only so much adherence to stuff you can do before you just want to talk about conflict zones. You reach an ethical saturation, where your best intention no longer matters, because you're trying to do everything. Yeah. And so it's just not going to happen. Right, right. And so you end up trying to help women in a conflict zone or, you know, whatever, and you end up doing the opposite of it because she decided, well, if we're close to wrapping,

Unknown Speaker  1:01:21  
we have to tell you, the show, hey, this is also from Margot Margot Edward Coldstream guard officer spoke perfect Arabic, super balls. And he was walking home. He was on the team I was working on. And we had Brits, we a Canadians, good group of guys. And he was walking home. It was winter. And it was dark. And he won't walk through an orthodox for the town. Yeah. Which both Mario and I had done it. You get funny looks. I mean, you know, the brown bear hats. Yeah, the red lights and all this. But he said it was just after dark. And he said this all the Jewish man came up to him to his hand. He said I very comfortable in Arabic. I'm not in Yiddish, or which right? Now he said, Okay. He took him, took him into an apartment building, went down the stairs. And an edge has been shot out a couple of times. And he said, I wasn't real worried. Yeah, I was worried.

Unknown Speaker  1:02:31  
Yes. He

Unknown Speaker  1:02:32  
said, first of all, the smell is horrible. Because they don't be very All right. He said, this guy's really holding my hand. He puts me and he found the light switch. And he had me turn on the switch. They couldn't. They couldn't. My gosh, yeah. And then it was, you know, very subdued Rodionova. This word is.

Pete Turner  1:02:59  
I'm going to tell you a partnering story. It with excellence. We're trying to talk about Arabs, the book by Tim McIntosh. Smith, hopefully we'll have him on the show very soon. It's really hard for him to break free from Yemen and everything. But I think he's going to be in London. So we're hopeful. But some of the easiest partnering I ever did was during the Gulf Cup. And you know, it's it's the soccer championships for the Arab states. And I'll just say it directly because I don't know what way to say it nicely. We handle this stuff terribly. And when we teach partnering, oh, by the way, we don't teach partnering. But, you know, we're not taught these things like hey, by the way, Arabs among a lot of other people are bonkers about soccer. You got a bunch of military dudes and their soccer on TV and it's the championship. Guess what they want to do? They just want to watch soccer. And so I went there and I realized I had to learn it. I made the mistakes. Before that. I watched my peers try to get things done. And on my Hey, I know it's a it's a Arab cup right now. So I would love to learn about what you guys like, I would invite you to my Super Bowl party. Can I come? I know I? Yeah, of course, Pete, you can come and I'm like, I need a team to root for. I don't care if they win or not. I just want to be part of the process. They gave me a team. They told me you know, these are the guys this is your guy. You know, that's these and they told me all this stuff. They fed me We drank alcohol. All of it hard hard. Yeah, I just shut up. I just enjoyed the hell out of watching soccer with these dudes. And I was instantly several pegs above anybody else in that whole America. Sure enclave for sure. Because I did. I didn't try to accomplish one damn thing. I just sat there and enjoyed soccer with these guys. And just observed and shut up and let and because I don't I I enjoy soccer during World Cup time. I'm not crazy. These guys are crazy. It's like going to England during the last World Cup. And we wanted to do business when England was playing.

Unknown Speaker  1:04:58  
You wouldn't look good that

Pete Turner  1:04:59  
not good people people were smashing their faces to Windows and bars. They were so fired up. Like that's the time just to let them do that. So that was a thing I learned is that and as part of the overall lesson is that we all we all hate cancer. We all want our kids to get better. Most of us love soccer.

Unknown Speaker  1:05:15  
Do you remember I grew up in South America. Yeah. I played soccer. Yeah, played soccer with with Peruvians. And it's the only sport that I will give a nodding acknowledgement of Yeah. As I said, our first interview I, to me, at least in this country, it's spectator sports is the opiate of the masses. But paraphrase marks. Yeah, but yeah, you're absolutely right. And that's what I felt that I was able to establish with the Palestinians. was first of all, I was running around a gaggle of other American Yeah, yeah, that helps collegial and I get it all. Yeah. I mean, it was, it was one of those. I tried so hard to get him started worship with Georgia. But he is English just wouldn't. Yeah, we actually brought him over here. But what wonderful people yeah. And and as I told, I told somebody in the embassy and really, really festival, they said, Well, you know, I got the Chinese a blockbuster. I said, Hey, wait a minute. I don't have to come to Jerusalem and meet an asshole. Yeah, I can stay in the United States. We got plenty of there.

Pete Turner  1:06:27  
Yeah, yeah. And and dislike anywhere else. You have people that are assholes. Yeah, people that are trying hard. And if you kind of take allow, like a military guy to be military guy who's military, anywhere, you've got a good beginning for a premise you do, you know, instead of just saying, this guy's dumb, you know, like, hey, what can I learn from this guy? And you start from that point, and it works better. And and I'm dying to have Tim on the show and talk to him about his book, because that is a big thick book. I'm fascinated by things like that. And

Unknown Speaker  1:06:56  
there's just read it. Read it. I mean, you know, I done no justice at all. It's, as you say, a sick book. Put it. He's a wonderful wordsmith, yeah. You will not be bored. Yeah, I'm positive to predict unary.

Pete Turner  1:07:15  
That's, that's the great thing about the Kindle. You read on the Kindle. You put your finger on the word, and it's like, I know, I know. But I like that. Then I actually looked the word up. You know, I like things that don't know. So

Unknown Speaker  1:07:27  
I, I use both of the show.

Unknown Speaker  1:07:31  
very reluctantly, I use what is the dictionary com? on the computer? Yeah. Which isn't bad. Yeah. But if you want the real nuances, you got to read it. Fair enough.

Pete Turner  1:07:43  
Yeah. I also like that, I'm going to keep talking. But I also love the etymology of words, terroir. And so if you can understand that you understand, you know, loss. Yeah. Well, listen, thanks. We have to do it again, especially when Tim comes on. Because it's always fascinating.

Unknown Speaker  1:07:57  
Well, I enjoy it. And I very much look forward, I have not hesitated. I made it a point of not emailing Tim, I've got his email address. But telling that I'm really, really looking forward to it. And if you'd be kind enough to say, I do have that review. Yeah, American service until I don't be put off by the title. Yeah, one of their editorial policies. And if you saw my piece on the Gold Star mothers, a word that I didn't originate it, but I did use it. And it's my word, is wars of choice. Now that we trundle off into the United States, one of their editorial policies is, and they said, We really like that we're going to put that in our wording. But one of their policies is, are we justified in fighting the wars we have recently fought now? And I told her, in fact, I wrote the essay editors. I talked to her on the phone. I don't know her. I said, you know, you can make the argument that this is are you going to use words of choice, but it's the sub is much bigger, so big, and thousand years? 3000? And you know, it that would not be fair? Yeah, it can be mentioned. She said, No, I think don't do an essay. Do a review. Now for the game is 2000 words. Last night? Yes, that's pretty good. And they're going to run it. At least according to the book editor. He said, we're looking at running it by itself on the blog, and then what's asked the blog name so we can look it up. I'll have to get a song like, okay, we'll put well, as soon as it's published. They sent me the link.

Pete Turner  1:09:42  
And I'll show you, I'll put it in the show notes for everybody listening. If you want to read John's his review of Arabs at lab, trust me, we're going to get into this with him. And it's going to be it's going to be mind blowing. Because anybody who puts that much work, just look at the size of that book. That's Yeah, that's a slow reader. And you got to go through again, because there's so much

Unknown Speaker  1:10:03  
five times I take a note section is probably a book about it. I mean, he's got people like Sinclair Lewis OE side, Sinclair loud. Yeah. He's side. Needless to say Kipling. Yeah. He cites Mark Twain.

Pete Turner  1:10:21  
Wow, he got everybody in there.

Unknown Speaker  1:10:23  
Do you? Are you familiar with Patrick Lee from now? Patrick leaf is a fabulously interesting guy. And I had to call Margo I said, He's, quote, fat. Patrick Lee farmer. Patrick leaf is one of these guys, only the British film producer. He actually captured a three star German General. Wow, he was special operations. The retribution was tremendous. Yeah, the civilian population. Yeah. But he didn't capture and he remained a POW until the end of the war.

Pete Turner  1:10:58  
But before the war, he had walked from Cali all the way to really he wrote two books about there's probably a puppy.Sure. 

john mckay  1:11:11  
The book say his name one more time so we can find this Timothy Mackintoch

Pete Turner  1:11:23  
Thanks, man. Appreciate you coming on. Thank you.