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Under the Bus - Gahlord Dewald has played the double bass for decades. He's a true freestyle player playing improvisational jazz as his home genre. Gahlord pursues art without bounds or form. His acceptance of miscomfort (even the word miscomfort is unsettling and that's the point) informs his art, but also his work.
Gahlord consults with CEOs to help them see "under the bus" where the work is dirty, ugly and essential. His consulting often focuses on 2 areas. Identifying where the work begins for complex problems. Helping businesses strike a balance between efficiency and profitable creativity. Pete and Gahlord dive deep into culture, politics and art. You'll enjoy this fun conversation. with a wonderfully thought-provoking dude-we mean Gahlord. #BIDS #conversation #podcast #episode Similar Episodes: 129 - Charleston Quinn 155 - Nathan East 120 - Nataly Dawn |
Transcription
Joel Manzer 0:00
Lions rock productions.
Unknown Speaker 0:05
This is Jay Mohr
Unknown Speaker 0:06
that Chris is Bryce
Unknown Speaker 0:07
texture from the offspring.
Unknown Speaker 0:10
Stewart Copeland, Randy Thomas is Dr. Bob Greenberg, Gabby
Jon Leon Guerrero 0:15
Reese. Rob bell. Hey, this is Johnny Andre
Pete Turner 0:17
and this is Pete a Turner.
Gaylord Dewalt 0:21
I'm Gaylord Dewalt Im an experimental double bassist, and I'm on the break it down show.
Niko Leon Guerrero 0:30
And now the breakdown show with john Leon Guerrero and Pete a Turner.
Pete Turner 0:37
Yes, Gaylord and I met Gosh, it's been years now, we're not often in the same room. But we definitely travel in the same circles. And so I love to introduce people from my expansive life. And it's it's nuts that I know so many people in so many parts, parts of the world, but it's true. And you all do so many incredible things. So yes, you are a musician, and you play the bass wonderfully. And this is a bass player heavy show. But you also do other things professionally dealing with data and you're a boy again, like me talk a little bit about the professional side, then I'm musical side first.
Gaylord Dewalt 1:13
Yeah, yeah. So it may it may come as a surprise to people but but being experimental double basis isn't always financially remunerative. So one of the ways that I make a go of it, is that I do strategy consulting, a lot of things around data, particularly marketing data, web data, are kind of areas that I can talk about a lot. Tons of like, weird SEO stuff. It ain't bragging if it's true, but like, I'm, I'm in the, you know, the top 10 of people who actually know what the hell is going on with things like search. So those those kinds of things, you know, pay for my music time. And that's kind of the way that I make all that go.
Pete Turner 1:56
Yeah, interesting. Talk a little bit about the base things then, when you I mean, that's obviously your spear passion. How long have you been playing bass?
Gaylord Dewalt 2:06
Man? I didn't plan since. I mean, I started playing electric when I was in seventh grade, because, you know, I was skinny guy, and how am I ever gonna get a girlfriend and start playing the electric bass and dance and, and he has switched to the upright, the double bass, you know, they've got a zillion names for the instrument, but the thing that looks like a cello, but on steroids, yeah, in high school, and then played that through college, and then kind of just kept, kept playing, you know, it's somewhere in the middle of college, kind of switched from sort of a been have had kind of a jazz background, and started getting into free jazz and experimental improvisation and those kinds of things. In late college, and then after college, like just kind of that's sort of where I ended up focusing on this kind of music, that that is as much about the physics of sound and the physical nature of sound and experiencing that, you know, is either an audience member with a group of people or on recordings, but it's thinking about sound in a, in a way that's maybe new or different, or it's certainly unlike what you might find on a normal radio or whatever. And normal radio stuff. That's great, too. I love that stuff. Sure, you know, play those things, too. But left to my own devices, I'm doing the unusual sounds.
Pete Turner 3:26
Well, when you so for the audience's benefit, if you try to define your world, it's very tough because you you sort of defy type, and you know, you, you are a sort of a, I don't know, I may be kind of a Janice kind of character real, like, you know, I like this, but I also like that, and it's both sides of the pancake, you know, so it's, yeah, yeah,
Gaylord Dewalt 3:52
we had a guy,
Pete Turner 3:54
what's that?
Gaylord Dewalt 3:55
I said, it's tons of that stuff is trying to find it ends up being like a blue end of that even like, you know, through my professional life, and everything else, I sort of think about, like, you're going to get, and I don't want to sound too lofty or anything, but you know, like the role of an artist. Yeah, the world is, in my opinion, to demonstrate through action, the alternative ways of living in the world that may or may not be, you know, obvious to people. And so like with my music, I am, I explore and experiment and some corners of it that are unusual that some people may have never heard before, although you could trace a line back to the 20s and 30s pretty easily with the kinds of sounds that I'm making. But also in the data and analytic side as well, where it's like, looking at data from different angles and new perspectives and drawing together a wide variety of sources in a way that's not not always, you know, the kind of thing you'd find in a textbook, but that you find by having actual raw experience in the world. And so both of those things kind of tie together and kind of an unusual way in terms of trying to codify and express lived experience through work, whether it's musical work, or data analytics. So
Pete Turner 5:22
let me jump in here. We had a guest on a little while ago named Dr. Stephen Alexander. And or Stefan Alexander. He's a a cosmologist. So he studies the stars. He's also a musician. Don't think you'll hear I'm going and he's he loves jazz. So he's like, I like to use jazz as a model to think about the cosmos. Because there's so much we don't know, we can get very linear and very tied to doctrine tied to literature. And and because of my jazz sensibilities, I can be comfortable. improvising, and looking for us our know, and taking that sour note somewhere that must resonate with you.
Gaylord Dewalt 6:04
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think it does for any improvising musician, I think a lot of jazz users and free improvisers and even the contemporary classical players and stuff, we always end up kind of applying that kind of stuff to our lives. It's like, it's, it's the art and music don't happen in a bubble that happen in our lives. And even for my friends, for whom all they do is music, you know, they still have lives. And improvising is a skill. You know, it's a skill that you develop over time, and some people are talented at from the get go. But mostly, it's a skill, you do it more and you get better at it. And a lot of it is like, like your friend said, it has to deal with a comfort level, like you can be comfortable with the unknown, can you how comfortable Can you be in an unknown situation. And jazz, I think it's a fantastic realm to explore that because, you know, in, like standards, jazz or traditional jazz that you might find at a bar or a club, you know, on a Wednesday or Thursday night in whatever town you're in, there's a general structure to the mood to the music, there's like a verse you know, or a chorus, or they call it a head. And then then there's the parts where people play solos, where they make it up as they go, and whatever way they do that, and then you come back to the head. And there's this, there's a clear framework within which this room to explore exists. And that's like life, right? Like, I get in my car, I need to go to the grocery store, and there's a construction on the street, and I you know, I can't just drive through the construction, I'm not a robot, I have to improvise. My how I'm going to get there. And I think that there are tons of those kinds of parallels in that the the musical mind is, it's a it's a distinct kind of way of approaching the world. You know, that's different from, say, a math or spreadsheet minded person, or a pure art visual person. But music is this interesting discipline that kind of encompasses aspects of mathematics and, and spatial, you know, cognition and that kind of stuff. Yeah, with everything else.
Pete Turner 8:17
Let me ask you this then. So, one of the things that I think that we both sort of specialize in when we're getting paid to advise a client is really striking a balance. We had an Olympic gold medalist named Eric Burgos, he's an aerialist and freestyle. So he flips and twists, you know, three, four times in the air. And he said, you know, the first Olympics, I didn't have that we're talking at the tip of the razor's edge. It's like I didn't, yeah, go for it. I didn't push it hard enough. And so I left things on the hill, that should have been in the air because I was holding back I can sure I was a solid, and I didn't win gold that year. The next Olympics, he had the right amount of looseness, you know, like, still there's the regiment and the work, but there was the confidence and the looseness to win gold. You know, and at that level, everybody's trying to find that moment. And then the following Olympics, he was too loose, too confident. Yeah. And he just missed it again. So there's, there's a parallel there in life in general. And I imagine would you have someone who runs a business and you're trying to help them improve things, it's one thing to create a system that's efficient, but that system will create that the efficient system will create inefficiencies because you get so bound by the system?
Gaylord Dewalt 9:34
Yeah. Bad. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So that's like, that's like, the thing that I love to love to go on about is dreadful efficiency, right? So there comes a moment in which the efficiency doesn't happen. Okay, so you, you get the finance guy, it's always the guy in this case, who is like, we need to cut back on everything to so that we were profitable, because that's, you know, that makes sense. It's part of, you know, whether we're profitable or not as an equation. And if we lower the expenses, then, you know, theoretically, if we can lower them far enough, then we'll be profitable. But, but often times, there's no, nobody is really clear which parts to cut, you know, so the parts that get cut are based on, you know, internal cultural values or cultural cues, not necessarily based on maybe what should get cut or shouldn't get cut. And so what ends up happening is, is you can get this sort of this feedback loop in which you're cutting the things that actually were had an important factor in generating revenue. And now you have to cut more, because you're on the other side of that become profitable equation, the generation of revenue is going down at the same, you know, cutting. So figuring out and figuring that stuff out is really hard. And it's why it's why businesses hire sentence because they know that internally, that they're their own cultural blinders are going to say, Oh, well, we should just cut marketing entirely, because they don't add any value to the bottom line. But that, you know, because there may be a bunch of engineers or something like that. And then they realize that engineers aren't very good at convincing people to buy something. And so it becomes, it becomes an important thing to get this outside perspective, you know, kind of going into and saying, Well, okay, yeah, maybe some of the marketing needs to go, but you need to look at which pieces of it need to go or, or maybe it's like, actually, you guys need to make a better product because your product sucks. And nobody's willing to admit that, you know, things like that. And that's and to be a consultant. Really, that's like our role, you know, and I usually say that, like, when I roll into a business, I'm like, here's the thing. I'm not going to be here in six months, which means that if somebody needs to hear some bad news, yeah, you know, if some bad news needs to be shared somebody and you're afraid to say it out loud, because you've got a mortgage, and you're trying to pay for your kid. Yes, stuff. Yes. Let me know what it is. I'm happy to crawl underneath the bus because I'm not going to be here in six months anyway. Yeah, you know, let's get it. Let's get it fixed. And, you know, if, if it's a bad idea, you can blame me. And if it turns out to be a good idea, give you credit. You know, once we know that the road is clear, because it doesn't matter to me, you know, I just want to do my job and roll out. So the, this the dreadful efficiency thing is real, you know, it's so real. And it's something that people run into, because it's, we all think, oh, efficiency is good. It's good. And, but it's also important to realize what sometimes valuable things come from inefficiencies. Yeah. You know, sometimes new ideas are generated, because you're dealing with this inefficient thing, and then a new idea pops into your head. You know, in the same way that I guess, you know, people experience you know, aha moments while they're taking a shower. You know, they they weren't like efficiently sitting at their desks at their planned moment of inspiration that just happens when it happens. And if our days are rigidly structured so that we are accomplishing something and being efficient 24 seven, we never get to experience the looseness that your friend the aerialist needed to win gold never have, if you never have time to experience that looseness, then the big breakthrough ideas aren't going to they just aren't going to happen. You know, and that's a cultural commitment for for business to say, we're going to be 10% inefficient. You know, I think if someone got up in front of the board and said Our goal is to be 80% efficient as a business, everyone would be like, what the hell? That's it. Yeah. But honestly, if you look at a lot of like biological systems and stuff like that, that it's important to do like your immune system, your immune system needs to chew at something if it doesn't chew it, something that chews at you, right. So, you know, it's not like it's too crazy. It's not like one of Taylor's crazy, Vermont hippie ideas. This is, you know, we've got lots of examples of this kind of thing going on. Yeah,
Pete Turner 14:18
yeah. And you said a lot of really good things that I want to capture. But but there's just so many. So I'm just gonna, we're often run in here. I mean, this is fantastic. So a lot of what we're going to do, is, is paralleled I mean, when I'm on the ground at a combat zone, I'm looking for those things where like, you're trying to create stability. If I can't find stability, from a stability output from this effort that you're endeavoring within, we have to back up and that stuff under the bus. That's where the work is. And you can say things like, Oh, you know, we want to grow market share. Yeah, but where's the work? Is it is it you want to cut marketing? Well, maybe you have enough marketing products, but you're not distilling enough things out of that that didn't like so. When I talk about podcasting with businesses, they say, you know, am I going to be able to sell pianos? I don't fucking know. Right? You know, but what I can tell you is that I'm going to give you 50 hours of content that you can carve up and do whatever you want with, you can pull quotes, you can do whole Instagram, pro cam, giving you all this dense product. Yeah, you have to refine it into things that work for you. If you have a marketing department, they can now help your sales people by creating more awareness and more familiarity. So can I sell pianos? Fuck yeah, I can sell pianos Do you have people that can tune the piano? You know, it's very challenging to get someone who's business minded. And this is what I'm going to go with this thing was business, Jonathan has a certain discipline, but doesn't have that. Anthony Ian arena has been on the show before today, he talks about the importance of getting an MFA over an MBA, if you have a fine arts background, you're forcing yourself to be under comfortable with your MBA self. And in between those things, you're going to find your path and it's never linear, it's sometimes you gotta run in a circle five times concentric circle, to get launched out. Talk about that, finding that discomfort. We're like jazz or improvisation, we're like, we're hit the sour note, you're like, No, I'm gonna live right here.
Gaylord Dewalt 16:21
Yeah, and that's. So first of all, I love the MFA MBA thing, partially because, you know, nine times out of 10, when I'm walking into a situation that's truly fucked up, there was an MBA in there before me, you know, almost always, when someone starts off the conversation, when we have this MBA, and I start to get in the back of my head, this is going to be a very profitable conversation for me. Because I don't know what it is about MBAs, but the they often when they make when they make mistakes, so how they make really interesting ones. But the thing about the thing about improvisation and this, I think ties, it ties to a lot of the other kind of areas where were you and I open lab as well is, is it does have to do with this idea of adapting to the existing environment, like being able to observe the environment, and place yourself within it, have an understanding of your own capabilities. And knowing like, Okay, I'm, I'm improvising right now. And there are certain things that I'm good at that I can do very well. And there are certain things that I can't do very well that I know that like, I need a little work on. But right now is right now, and I have to do them and, and you have to find, find whatever it is within you to like make that work and or surround yourself with other people that can work with you that you know, cover those gaps, etc. And that like for me, like when I think about the like to tie it into the you know, the Jon Voight stuff, frankly, is that, like improvisation, musical improvisation is one of the most flexible ways to practice that to actually like, how do you practice doing things in the moment without, you know, how do you practice that like brain plasticity that's required to make decisions functionally in a stressful moment, without, you know, without the training being something that gets you killed? And, and music is like a place for that. Like, particularly like improvisation, whether it's standards, jazz, it has a structure that's a little safer. You like, Okay, I know what keys and chords and stuff are, or whether it's the stuff that I do that's just wide open, free terrain, and you just have to make it and feel uncomfortable until you till you get it worked out either way, but it provides a an opportunity for the person who's doing it to experience like, whoops, I screwed that up, or this thing is coming at me that I don't understand, I don't know what going on, how do I deal with it. And, and having to be, again, be aware of what your capabilities are. And you and use that it's I think it's like a it's a, it's pretty abstract. But it's, it's a, I believe, an effective way to actually practice that feeling. And you know, so it's not obviously, like, doing improvisation on the base is not going to make me a better marksman, but it does help me prepare my mind for those kinds of tasks. And that and that's like the thing that I think that's important in looking at, you know, experimental music or those kinds of things, experiences that those of us who do that we have that thing and we do it all, like I do it all the time, where people who play jazz are doing it all the time. And and as you mentioned, like, other people who've been on the show, mention it pretty much anyone who's a musician will tell you that that we carry that experience, what we did in the music, we carry that with us into the world. There's an interesting thing that I didn't realize until earlier, but a friend of mine has. She's got a website that focuses on it's it's based in Seattle, and it basically is a listing of all of the community orchestra, you know, events that happen in Seattle. And she was telling me that Seattle has like the highest per capita number of like community orchestras, like there's a tremendous number of musicians that are in Seattle, which, and it turns out that a lot of them are working for like Microsoft and Amazon and everything else is that these people who work in those kinds of fields, technology fields, and stuff tend to be have have like a musical kind of corner of their mind. So when I think about like, you know, success within the tech industry, etc. I'm like, Well, yeah, of course, they're all musicians. You know, they're all musicians, and they're practicing a certain flexibility and improvisation in their lives.
Pete Turner 21:03
Yeah, this the improvisational comfort to so one of the things, concepts that I think about is limit ality and there's, there's limited time, but I'm more of a liberal traveler and you you are true from what the sounds of us, you understand the concept. So a great example of this is this. And I'll just call it a three legged stool. I think there's probably more than that. But the three legged stool, the ethical problem conundrum, that this whole Colin Kaepernick thing brings up and I'm not going to put you on a position, but I know you can handle the improvisation with me. So we've got three different things. There's the people that are like, go, Colin Kaepernick go, you know, we have to fight on justice. There's the folks that say, hey, that flag represents some significant sacrifice and benefits for us better knock that shut off. And then there's the blue lines, blue Lives Matter, folks are like, Quit making my loved ones or my job harder than it already is more dangerous. All three of those groups are right, but not exclusively. So understand that guys, like us can get in and say, I totally get it like, yeah, if you're a black dude in the city, and you get pulled over by a cop or a black dude in the suburbs, you you are afraid for your very life. And or in a country, frankly, but in the country. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and as an American, I'm ashamed that we still have this problem. But yeah, you're saying it's, you know, we don't mean to offend veterans or people that back veterans, you don't get to say that. And the people, you know, so there's all these counter views that people want to take one side, and it's uncomfortable to go sit in the blue Lives Matter chair? Because, sure, it's just nasty business. When you look at it that way, what does it take, does a CEO need to be able to sit on top of that stool and say, I get all three of you that you're all right, and yet, not exclusively, so
Gaylord Dewalt 23:01
I don't know, you know, I really don't know, I think a CEO, it really depends on the culture of the organization, right? Like, the the CEO needs to be able to provide the vision for the organization. You know, that's what the CEO really needs to do. And maybe some kind of operations manager needs to have a totally solid draft of all the different things and play it up. But I think it would probably be better for everybody, if the CEO just took the position that the CEO takes, you know, and if if whichever, those three or other perhaps even, you know, viewpoints are there, then that's what the CEO takes, and then take your lumps from that, take your lumps, and move on and set the vision for the organization. You know, that's that the role of the CEO is really at it, in my opinion, is really at a vision setting kind of zone. And, and a good CEO is going to know how to have their like, a Do they have a dog in that fight? The weather people take a knee or not at at the national anthem? Does it? Like is it it? Does it really matter? If a refrigerator sales company, you know, has a position on that? Is that relevant to the world in any way? Right? You know, those kinds of being able to make a decision, like, is this a fight, I need to be sure. And if it is, you know, and maybe it is, if it is then then you pick your, I'd say pick your thing and and stick with it. You know, even if it's one that I disagree with, I'd say you know, that's that's how you feel about I'm not ever going to tell someone not to like operate the way they feel Unless, you know, it's going to result in imminent danger to somebody right now. So I guess that's where I go with it. I don't think a CEO necessary. I mean, a good CEO or smart individual is going to, is probably going to be able to like figure that stuff out and make it make a sound decision. But the the, you know, he or she has to look at like, well, what's my business? Yeah, what's my corporate culture? What are my and what are my employees? What's, what's their statement? Do they? Do they need? Do my employees need leadership on this? You know, is is that why I'm going to take a position on it? Does my industry need leadership on this? And does my business need to be in this particular fight? You know, I think there's a lot of those, you know, that that, you know, they probably, maybe everybody should be, like, genuinely involved in this discussion, it's an important one, you know, it's an important one for our country to kind of look at that, and there's a ton of different very nuanced ways of discussing it, you know, I, I know, as many veterans as not who support taking a knee, so it, you know, the, the, their issues on that, and same actually, you know, with, with, with police organizations, too. So it's, there's, I think there's a lot of different ways of looking at it. And fortunately, our media ecology is one that favors a very brief, not very nuanced conversation, and money is made more on outrage than it is on actual discussion. And I think I get the CEO actually wants to, like, do the real work, like, do this do what needs to be done in the world? Then, you know, they're going to have to crawl under the bus. Yeah, and start having those conversations with their employees, with the public. And just clearly state their state. They're saying, that's, that's where I go with that. Yeah, Lee, but you know, I think that's where you can flip a coin on that. First, at first up is like, dude, is that is that a fight you need to be? Right? Is that one where you could just walk across the street? And, you know, hang out for a little bit? Or? Or do you need to do the research within your organization, I think that's probably the biggest risk that the CEO is going to have is,
Jon Leon Guerrero 26:58
this episode of the breakdown show was brought to you by lions, rock productions, that's us. We publish, evaluate and develop podcasts just like this one, consult others to build their own and create associated content and content marketing strategies.
Pete Turner 27:12
So if you're launching or expanding your social media presence, your business or your personal brand, or if you just want to take your media presence to the next level,
Jon Leon Guerrero 27:20
reach out to us on Twitter,
Pete Turner 27:21
at Pete a Turner,
Jon Leon Guerrero 27:23
or at john LG 69, I had to break it down show, there's 1000 ways to get ahold of us now enjoy the show.
Gaylord Dewalt 27:30
Or do you need to do the research within your organization, I think that's probably the biggest risk that the CEO is going to have is choosing choosing a position on that. And they're going to quickly discover that a large number of their employees don't agree with them, no matter which position they take on a particularly on that one, the industries that I tend to work with, you know, retaining talent is a very difficult thing. So yeah, you have to figure that out.
Pete Turner 27:55
Let's talk about that talent thing, because there's such an access. So I've got a show called popping the bubble, and everybody should listen to it, because it's fucking awesome. It's about technology, in terms of startup culture, and entrepreneurial ideas, and it's such a fascinating thing to hear these people talk about different things. And God damn it, I lost my train of thought, What did you just say?
Gaylord Dewalt 28:19
We were talking about talented.
Pete Turner 28:22
Okay, yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so, with all this stuff, one of my favorite questions to ask is we have all this access to information. Are we any wiser? What do you think? No? Okay. You know, no, no.
Gaylord Dewalt 28:41
Question. We're still got two legs, two arms. You know, so it's, you know, we're still human beings, we're not any wiser you could pump more data into the system, and that doesn't make it a better system. It can help. Yeah, certainly. But you know, a lot of times the idea with data all the time and, and how companies gather and what they do with it after they gather it. And there's, more often than not, people are gathering more data than they need. Yeah. Which, consequently, it's not just like, it's not easy to do that, like they have to store it, they have to gather it, they have to maintain systems that collect it. So in a lot of cases, they're just outright paying for it. And when they're not outright paying for it, they're paying their staff to deal with it. So it's not like it's easy to gather all this data. And what happens is you get in a meeting, and someone says, should we gather this or not? Someone will always say, yeah, we should gather. And if if we can gather, it will gather it, you know, it's part of the sort of other weird Maxim of like, you know, you can't manage it unless you can measure it. And so therefore, everything gets measured. But then the downside is, you're only managing two things that can be measured, and you miss all the nuance of life. So anyway, I could go on for days about this one. But no, having more data does not mean take us in wiser. Having more time to think is what makes us wiser, having more time to sit and reflect and think, and kind of rolling back to the efficiency. What's ending up happening is we're spending a lot of time chasing our tail to gather more data, and process more data. And, and we're taking that time, from the time that we formerly would be able to sit and think about the data. You know, that's that 20% inefficient, like, just let's just stare at that spreadsheet for 10 minutes and see what happens. You know,
Pete Turner 30:35
yeah, well, even if that spreadsheet is the right, the right thing to look at, you know, like we have these we have these outputs, like for example, so I talked a lot about effect over effect. And right you know, it's such a people are alive, but effects of it. No, it's not, it's also a noun. And if you fucking shut up for a second and listening like,
Gaylord Dewalt 30:56
right one has an A and one hasn't he come on.
Pete Turner 31:00
But like, if you can create the response to stimuli that is in the ballpark, even of what you're going for, then you're going in the right direction. So here's an example. So on LinkedIn, they have a powerful veteran front face, they're always pushing, pushing, pushing, and I am calling out LinkedIn on this. It's fine with me because it's true. I defy someone because I certainly can't engage those veterans inside LinkedIn in a positive way. I know they have some people that can it but I can't. I've tried tons of times. The LA Times put out a thing saying, Hey, we want to do a sports based podcast and the sports editors to point of contact. So go to this page and email him I did that asked me how many responses I've had asked me Go ahead.
Gaylord Dewalt 31:46
How many responses you had none.
Pete Turner 31:48
So here you have this system that's created an enormous efficiency not only have you not found someone that's talented, and looking to help and knocking Yeah, opening the door saying Hello, yes. But yeah, you don't have it now. I hate no hate. But now I have a real distaste for LinkedIn. And I'm glad to spread that because because of the lack of response, and same thing with LA Times, and I've sent the the editor an email every Monday for the last four weeks and never gotten if you can't handle the work, then that's fine. But understand you creating a terrible outcome. By doing Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 32:23
yeah, but probably paying for it probably paying money to generate that terrible outcome. Like a, it's a crazy little zone, you know, it's like, it's, it had a great idea like, hey, put your mind it's good idea. And, but kind of other than that, like, it's like, there's no social network in the network, and 90% of the emails that one gets by way of our contacts, one gets by way of LinkedIn aren't valuable, right, there just aren't, you know, a random email from from the web is probably going to be more valuable to me than than my Lincoln's. But that said, like, having my LinkedIn profile, the profile itself is incredibly valuable to me, you know, I know lots of people who go and look at my profile, and they're like, you've got the best profile in the world, and I want to do business, but like, but they don't contact me through LinkedIn, you know, they can't there, they already found me the way LinkedIn works, somebody already knows who you are, and they're just doing their due diligence, right, that's where LinkedIn is valuable. Unfortunately, for LinkedIn, they are not sure how to make money off of that, they've probably got some time to work it out. So no big deal. But the that kind of stuff, you know, connect that to like, the even if you're looking at the right data, right? Is that are you looking at the right is the right person looking at the right data? You know, so that's another, another kind of area of that is like, okay, we've put out this ad and we, and we send it to these people, and they're responding to it. But it's whatever that that that message is, is not like connected on the back end to somebody who's actually going to respond to it. You know, and that's an internal cultural problem. It's a problem. I would say it's LinkedIn problem, because they're, they're hosting that interaction. Sure. But the problem also, the genuine problem, is that La, la times people aren't like, I don't know what's broken there, but somewhere to separate us.
Pete Turner 34:26
So like, I'm talking like, Daniel savages title that LinkedIn is head of military and veteran programs at LinkedIn. I cannot get that I've connected with them. But I cannot get that guy's time a day. Yeah, I want to give him access to the podcast talk about what they do. Right. But he will Yeah.
Gaylord Dewalt 34:43
You know,
Pete Turner 34:44
he won't return my call. And maybe he's busy. Let's see, I'm sure he gets his dog and his mom loves him. But, you
Gaylord Dewalt 34:50
know, of course, of course. But
Pete Turner 34:52
yeah, the time thing is, like,
Unknown Speaker 34:54
if you've got like, you've got a title that says that my job is to connect with these people, then then you need to have some way of managing that. I mean, it doesn't, you know, if his if his intern got back to you, you wouldn't be psyched, but you'd be okay with it.
Pete Turner 35:08
Yeah. Cool. You know, this is
Unknown Speaker 35:11
the I, you know, I'm writing back and got your message. something's going to happen, you know, not just like basic business stuff, which, I guess is basic to us, but maybe not to the people. And the, you know,
Pete Turner 35:24
so it's, it is a weird, dynamic. Yeah. And then the LA Times is like, you know, we want this high end person to come in and do a challenging podcast, but not really. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 35:37
yeah. Well, that happens with any institution, right? So say they want something because they know that it's, they know that someone in their garage is making the podcast, it's going to put them out of business. Right, ya know, that that's happening, ya know, that that's happening. But at the same time, the reason that they haven't already built that podcast on their own internally, is because their culture doesn't support it. Right? Right. If their culture supported that kind of thinking already, then they would already have that podcast, but it doesn't. And so the problem is, and I encountered this a bunch to I bet you do as well, you know, CEO goes to the conference somewhere, and they come back saying, We need to do something cutting edge, blah, blah, blah, yeah. And so they get fired up about it, and a bunch of people run around with the hair on fire, and they say, let's hire somebody that's cutting edge, and then they do it. And then it's and then they try to make that cutting edge person, you know, wear a suit and tie and show up at nine and leave at five and, you know, be a normal, you know, worker grown. And that doesn't work because the culture, the culture, that breeds the kind of person who's going to do a cutting edge thing? Doesn't inspiration doesn't happen between nine and five, what happens when it happens?
Pete Turner 36:48
Yes, you know, it's personally not Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 36:51
it's just, yeah, it's just, it happens when it happens, you know, they kind of make it that improvisation side again, it's like, you know, for the free music that I make like this, just like 123, let's start playing, see what happens. It's not all of this may come as a surprise, it's not all pleasant to listen to. You might go to a show of this and, and be like, Yeah, I was at a two hour show, there were 245 minute sets of which five minutes were amazing. And the rest of the time, I had to leave, I wanted to get out. I couldn't, you know, I was dying. And that's, that's the way in my experience, innovation works, too. You know, it's you don't get to choose which five is might not be the first five minutes, it might be the five minutes. Part, what you don't know when those five minutes are gonna, you know, they're going to happen, because you've done it enough. And you can trust the process. You can trust your skills, but you don't know that it's going to happen between 9am and 5pm. You don't know that, you know, and you're comfortable with it, because you've done it, like you made this music and you know it. And the same thing I think is true for these kinds of innovations. Things were the if if their culture supported it, they'd already make it, they wouldn't be looking to buy it. And we see this in buyouts, like, you know, company buyouts all the time. You know, Apple is like, you know, famous for this, so by a company that we like, and then that's a bummer. Adobe did that how many like awesome pieces of software that Adobe buy? And then like, destroy? Yeah, actually, yeah. Now, like, that happens all the time, or Microsoft, they had they bought, they did a, like a mercy hire of a G of one of these genius mobile developers whose business wasn't going well, or whatever. And, you know, couldn't couldn't let the person actually innovate. Now, that's its cultural, its cultural. And I know that that's like an area of your your own expertise is I'm sure you see these things. But it's, it's a cultural problem. You can't just say, Oh, I'm going to hire the innovative person. You can't, because the reason you didn't hire them already, is that there's you you have to fix something inside. You have, you have to be the kind of place where that person wants to apply.
Pete Turner 39:06
Yeah. Yeah. What exactly and going back to that cutting edge person is sharp, they're nimble, in you are your darling machine. So yeah, you want to retain talent, cutting edge talent, you have to be able to withstand the lack of comfort that having something really sharp walk around a bunch of people that are adult and I don't mean in terms of an intellect. But in terms of capability, it's dangerous to have a sharp knife running around, because you might get cut, you know, and
Gaylord Dewalt 39:38
yeah, so Exactly, exactly. When I
Pete Turner 39:43
say it again,
Gaylord Dewalt 39:45
I was saying I just said, that's exactly the case, you know, that that's like, would you have someone who's in and it might not even like be necessarily be a mean or nasty or whatever not like, right, you know that you have someone who's incredibly skilled and talented walking around all day, people are going to pick up, pick up on that and raise their game. Now you've got a whole floor full of people who have just upscaled themselves in six months. And now they all want to raise it, right. Because now they all know, suddenly, they know what they're worth. And they're starting to think about the world in a different way. Because that's really what for me, anyway, that's like the goal, right? To get everybody to think about the world more deeply, you know, more consistent with their own values, whatever they are, even if they're ones that I have, or I would rather someone wear it out on on their sleeves, so that I can steer clear them or, or eliminate the threat quicker. But it's like, the goal is to be able to, you know, live more freely, right. And when, especially when you look at the like the difference between working in a in a normal, like a day job kind of situation versus like a freelancer or consultant, an independent contractor, entrepreneurial minded person, you know, there are different different acceptances of risk that the different groups take. And sometimes, you know, mixing and matching those two squads of people, you know, can have unpredictable results, sometimes great. And most of the time, I think, probably great, unpredictable results, but but the leader has to be able to inspire the kind of appreciation for leadership, you know, that whole mechanism needs to be in place. And that's all again, it's hard. That's hard work. You don't learn it in an MBA.
Pete Turner 41:35
Yeah, right. You're right about that. And let's kind of go back to that, let's go back up and hit that wall again. So one of the things when I talked to folks who who lead is a talk about how culture just despises define design, culture and design don't get along well. So even if your design thinking, because you can't just design culture, culture, culture is accelerating effect, right? And that drives people nuts to think that you can't just say, yeah, we you know, he, everybody's got a corporate culture officer now, and they're all doing it. But if you can't talk intelligently about CQ, if you're talking about EQ, you've only got part of the picture. And if you don't know what CQ and EQ are, then you really don't have a proper professional cultural program. And I would say also, that, from my experience, at least, you have to study your culture externally, someone needs to pick the get under the bus and go, let's take a look at what your culture is. What do you think?
Gaylord Dewalt 42:33
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Because you can't, it's just difficult to see the system from within the system. And that, and the, the, the rewards, and, you know, mechanisms for rewards are just, it's too, it's too close. You know, it's too close. Like, if a person just isn't going to be that objective enough to do a truly good job, you could probably get go along the way. If you've got someone who's like, amazingly, you know, tuned in, or tuned out, maybe, but the getting an outside perspective, is kind of the way to go on that kind of thing, because it's the same way like, you know, the anthropology work, right, that's what we're talking about. Apology work, to get an ethnography of what's going on in, in the organization itself. And, and to, and to approach it. Because I think what happens, honestly, I think what happens internally, is that, you know, you're as likely to get people who are too focused on the negative as you are on the positive. And sometimes you're going to get the kind of person who's like, Oh, no, everything's great. And I just wrote a report about how great we are. And then other people are going to write a report about man, we're miserable, his report about how miserable we are. And the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, and then it's a matter of like, you know, going back to the efficiency thing of like, figuring out, okay, which of these terrible things are actually responsible for us making money? And can we find a way to do that more humanely? And, you know, and that kind of thing? And it's, it's, it's tricky, and I think you're absolutely right about, like, you can't design a culture, because it's, it's the culture is a product of a society, right? It's, it's a product of the of the people who agree to share it, you know, and, and, and corporations and stuff are already kind of at a disadvantage there. Because people, they're only agreeing to, they're only agreeing to share that culture because they need to pay the rent. Yeah, that's, that's your starting point. I know until you get to be the kind of inspiring business that people want to work for, for free. And, and I don't know that anybody's ever really going to get there. Some, you know, there's things you can be psyched to, like, I'm like, I could tell my mom, I work for Apple or whatever. And she knows it is, and that's great. But, but you know, it's still like, the reason they're agreeing to share it is a is a recent source intensive kind of situation. And it's, and and how do you navigate all that stuff? And, I mean, you can, I guess, theoretically, you could design a culture, but then you know, you'd be a fascist, like you could do with that method, right? And that's not like, we don't want that, right. So like, that's been tried, it's not effective in the long run. You know, and it doesn't yield very innovative results. So skip that. And instead, like, get, get messy with it, and figure figure it out from the people that you work with. And I mean, there's obviously processes and stuff you can put in place. Sure. But, you know, once you start having, and some of those things do need to just be spelled out, because again, the only reason these these people are choosing to share this culture together is to get a paycheck, which means you're going to get people with a wide variety of opinions about different things. Yeah. So it's good to like, you know, get it straight from the get go, like, Hey, we're not harassing people here is going to be a safe workplace environment, you know, just in case anybody was curious, like, we're going to do those things. But then once you get beyond those basics of like, how do we, you know, maintain a safe environment to have our ideas together? You know, then it's just like, do we provide the time and I, for me, that's the thing I see the most is, is time do we have is their time in the day? Is this a workplace in which people have the time to reflect on their work? You know, and most places don't? Because it's not efficient? Yeah. Like, there is no product to measure on that. Like, you know, how many hours of reflection did you do today? or whatever, I've, you know, there's no thing to measure and therefore doesn't get managed and gets swept under the bus? Because, you know, you will, it's easier to manage how many widgets got widgets that day?
Pete Turner 46:55
Yeah, how many widgets kept widget ties that they were talking to Gaillard walled, who's a musician but also a consultant. And if you're not getting like the how cool he is, and Lloyd is tell you, he's he's awesome. He, he's a, he's a damn know, good liberal, liberal hippie from from the northeast, who also loves guns.
Gaylord Dewalt 47:12
So as I tell all of my friends, I am I am the most liberal person, you know. And, and I'm man sighs accurate up to 600 yards.
Pete Turner 47:25
Well, that brings up a good point. And we talked a lot about the concept of where the work is, you know, because that's if people have caught that, like, that's what we're really trying to define that like, No, no, no, that's what you want to have happen. But no shit, where's the work. So this guns in schools debate is and we're not going to get into the debate, but we're gonna, we're going to highlight like where the work is. So we can go after the Second Amendment. But there's rules to that. And there's a huge political fight and you're moving, you know, millions of people towards something they don't want to go towards. Or you can harden schools. And that doesn't mean put guns in church, teachers hands, but we can find more ways to protect holistically. We can work on techniques for the, you know, there's a lot of things that can be done tactically right now, today, and also understand that the school resource officer, one dude with the pistol, you shoot out the 600 meters, if there is an active shooter, and you're the guy at the school with the pistol, how far away Do you think you need to be to safely take that shot in that situation?
Gaylord Dewalt 48:22
Yeah, yeah. I want to be that guy.
Pete Turner 48:24
Yeah, exactly. And you can't train for that. I mean, like, you think we put a lot on the police. I was talking with Fred. You know, you know, Fred, you must know, Fred. Yeah, I was talking to Fred Leland the other day about just you know, what we expect that cops have for training and what the reality is reality is maybe once a year, they shoot a hand, not handful. They shoot a box of bullets, 50 to 100 bullets, maybe maybe once a year.
Gaylord Dewalt 48:48
Yeah, we all know that, like, time to train with those firearms, we know what the like, you can find what the you know, the accuracy rate is not very good.
Pete Turner 48:57
Right, in standing still and shooting at something that's
Gaylord Dewalt 49:01
let's say, it's rare range
Pete Turner 49:02
as far as 10 meters away, you know, under no stress, you know, with the gun likely already out, because no one wants to get shot at the range, you know, and, and you're blinking a piece of paper, and there's no, there's no fluidity. There's no
Gaylord Dewalt 49:18
ball on the other side of that. Yeah.
Pete Turner 49:20
Right. So we unfairly expect all these things and we're going to go after the second amendment that just seems like that's a great go do that affects your passion. But that seems to be something that's so tangential to where the problem is keeping kids safe. How do you how do you communicate this to people in a way that makes sense? And it doesn't have to be about kids in school? But like in terms of big hairy problems, how do you get people to slow down and get down to the net? where the where the actual differences can be made?
Gaylord Dewalt 49:53
Yeah, I think that's, I mean, and that's a, that's a big, you know, big, scary debate for lot of different people, you know, like, and as you might imagine, me and my friends disagree pretty heartily on a lot of, you know, things regarding the Second Amendment, the first thing I usually encourage people to do is read, there's a book called gun fight, and I encourage them to reduce about the Heller case in DC and kind of like, lays out the political groundwork a little bit, you know, for how, how do we have this recommend that we have today and you know, what's going on with it? And, and, you know, there are certain players in it that, you know, you'd be surprised to find out which side of the certain things they have actually been on in certain circumstances. You're like, oh, the guys are doing that's weird. But I think like, when you when it gets right down to, you know, kids in the danger of having kids in schools, and people with guns and come in and shoot out, I'm like, that's a I don't have the solution to that. Yeah. The I think like what you're talking about in terms of like architecture changes, things like that all make sense. It gets harder, though, when you save, like, How hard is it to pass a school budget in any given town? Yeah, it's not easy, right? It's not easy. And if we're going to like change the way the buildings are built, and designed and structured, those have to somehow pass and there are there are a lot of people who would rather not give any money to public education. So there's, you know, you're going to end up with a wide variety of political conversations about it. And but I do think I do think it's good to be having them. And I think it's good to have those conversations immediately. I don't I don't like some people always say, Oh, we need to wait a certain amount of time before we talk about it stuck. I'm like, hell no, start talking right now. Sure. We should have we should be I mean, this is probably a discussion we should always be having, frankly, because it's it's one where, you know, we're looking around kids getting shot, I'm not into that. I'm not into it. There. So I think it's I think it's responsible firearms owners should be willing to engage in that conversation at a time. Because, you know, that's it, that's a scary thing. And and people are going to have questions about it. And I think the larger problem with it is just the polarization. Yeah, that that occurs around pretty much every issue in the in the world today, or in the in the country today is a highly polarized nature of it makes it difficult to have a genuine conversation. So like a when someone approaches me about about firearms or whatever, and you know, it, like I have to check my own self to make sure that I'm like, you know, lyst at genuinely listening to what their concern is, and then I have to genuinely think about, well, what is what is the, the way forward here? You know, I mean, I think, ultimately, it's just at the legal layer of things. There's the there's the Second Amendment, and it's in there, and unless, unless that gets changed, it's probably going to stay in there. Yeah, I think that it is a genuine, you know, for those who are, who prefer the second amendment to be the way it is, or to, you know, to have gun rights that are as liberal as they are in my state. The, the challenge really, is to remember that that states could decide to start having that that vote, you know, about, let's change the constitution. So it's not like it's not a 100% given. So so it is, and that's why I think it is important for people who do support the Second Amendment, to be willing to engage in honest conversation with people at any time, frankly, and that includes right after a tragedy. And that includes when a tragedy isn't happening, and until, like, set aside issues of political party or any of that other like, bullshit, and just be Yeah, well, let's talk about it. And let's talk about it. Because those, I think that, like, the minds aren't going to be changed by large. You know, they're going to be changed one by one, right? I guess it's going to be individual conversations, going to look at it and say, Well, okay, the problem here is actually this or actually, that, you know, like, and I think that there are some areas where I would like to see, pro Second Amendment organizations be more active, like I would have a lot more faith in the more well known Second Amendment activists, activists, if they were also if they had like, a
incredibly active program about like gun suicide, or things like that. Because, like, when we look at the data, right, this is a roll into the data that a lot of the gun deaths in the states are the suicides, right, you know, so. So that's an area where we can all agree, like, boy, me, great, if there were fewer of those, what can we do about that? You know, that's, it's not the same as, like, the homicides and especially as a school or something like that. But like, Where are the areas that we can cooperate? Like, where are the areas that are like, that are easy, and actually have as, as visible a presence, about, you know, things like suicide, as we do about things like my right to carry? semi auto, you know, down the street or something like that, which is, frankly, ridiculous to do. But you have to like to do it. Great. But you know, that, that, I think that's, I don't know, I don't have the answer to it.
Pete Turner 55:51
No, you're not supposed to, but but you have the ability to have the conversation, which, unfortunately, is way too rare these days. Yeah. I'm not calling now.
Gaylord Dewalt 56:01
And we're both sides of the roots were on both sides of the other thing, you know, sometimes on, because I train a lot. And so I find myself in the company of people with whom I disagree very, very greatly on a large number of political, you know, yeah. It's like, it's like, Hey, man, I've already read that talking point. You know, I know that I've already read them. I subscribe to that email list to actually talk about and, and obviously, my friends and loved ones on the left are also get very, you know, can get pretty hectic as well. Sure.
Pete Turner 56:38
Yeah. You know, it's a funny thing. Gosh, there's so many things to talk about. But, you know, there's not that I'm aware of, at least there's not an organization defending the third amendment. And it's, it's weird that the second takes such things. And we use the arguments of like, you know, did the founding fathers and 10 because there wasn't that kind of, you know, weapon capacity. Same thing is true for the first amendment in and, and, and again, the third. So here's the third, right, and then we go to another country, and we break the third. And, you know, that's not their third amendment. But we break that right, that we just hold us an automatic now I think like, it's everything settled. We don't want to quarter troops in our homes. But we go to someone else's country. And we're like, Hey, get out. Yeah. And then we expect democracy to be fostered there. And it's just the side.
Gaylord Dewalt 57:32
No, yeah. Yeah. It's tricky. It's tricky. It's like, well, there. Are they the enemy. Are they not is the civilian. I mean, there's a whole like, layer of, you know, within America, I think there's a whole ancient thing in our brain stems about, like, we have a diff, we have difficulty distinguishing between justice and punishment. Yeah, I know, it's very difficult, I think, for us as a society to distinguish between justice and punishment. Yeah. And so I think that like when we, when we are when our troops are in another country, we're thinking about punishment, we're going to punish them for what they did to us that made us go there. They're civilians,
Pete Turner 58:15
right?
Gaylord Dewalt 58:16
They're less than us either. Yeah. And it doesn't matter, right. They're all like, the first thing we're going to do is make it all one enemy. And then at that point, it doesn't matter. Right, we're going to, they somehow are responsible for whatever it is that got sent over there. So I think that that's an that's a difficult thing, right? That's a difficult thing. And we see it ourselves, even on our own soil was like the difference between someone who has, you know, served their time done, what the state has asked them to do for whatever crime they've committed. But, you know, there are still like, do we still punish them for even though they've done what they were supposed to do? Or, you know, those kinds of and those are, again, these guys do not have the answers. I'm not right on these things. But it's, it's an area that like, requires genuine civic and civil conversation. Sure. Maybe not even that civil, you know, I'm okay, if people like want to shout and scream and stuff, I think sometimes being angry is appropriate. And I think that like getting worked up about like, tone policing, it usually tends to favor one group and and disadvantage another. So it's okay, that civil, but it does have to happen and be genuine. You know, about these, and particularly, I think, if the issue of punishment and justice, what the differences between those two things are there's also
Pete Turner 59:38
a important difference between adversary and combatant, you know, yeah. And politically, we are way too willing. And when people talk about civil war, I just like, Look, say when, like, if you really want to throw down, you got to pick the wrong guy argue with because, you know, if you're walking around about about a 600 meters away, you're not good blocking anymore. I come on. You asking about someone who knows cold, hard business, and you're trying to tell me you're into cold? No, you're not? No, you're not. Right. You know, you want to disagree? Plus, I'm not I'm not. I'm not even against them, you know, post the time. Like, I'm actually not against you. I'm just pointing out a valid opposite viewpoint. You know, like you say, people who are are certifiably insane, shouldn't have weapons. Okay, so should they be able to vote? Well, hey, hold on a second, you can't take someone's right to vote, but they can't own a different things. Like, it's a viable question, you know? Or who decides?
Gaylord Dewalt 1:00:38
reasonable? It's a reasonable conversation. Yeah. And I could see it in a cup. Whatever way it comes out. It comes out. Yeah. You know, like, like, the whole, like, extending, like, you know, worries about slippery slopes and so on, you know, it's like, No, you just have you actually, and this is what sucks about this democracy. You have to have every conversation. Yeah. And you have to have it, you have to have it on its own merit. And maybe, maybe you you say, okay, insane, people shouldn't have firearms, and then, and then someone brings up well, okay, well, maybe they shouldn't be able to vote to and then we're going to have them we start that conversation and work it out from there. You know, it's, I think that like, everything is always up for grabs in a democracy.
Pete Turner 1:01:29
I want to take a few more minutes if you've got them. And I just want to bring up this conversation because I love hearing you talking about so one of the points I bring up like people always use, let's say, some Northern European country, or Japan or Australia, but let's just say Denmark, look at how Denmark does it. But what Denmark doesn't have, they have unity, right? The opposite of diversity is unity. So if you're going to have a diverse, rich country, like we have, you're going to have a lot of discomfort. You know, and I'm saying discomfort, on purpose, or miss comfort, be even, it might be better, you're gonna have a lot of discomfort and a lot of disagreement on with the direction we go. Because you've got first generation people, multi generational people, this religion, that religion, no religion, and you're asking for a singularity and thought, and I just don't know that that is a good goal. It's like, what zero sum game?
Gaylord Dewalt 1:02:25
Yeah, good. No, we're not. Yeah, we're not gonna have, you know, and again, I'm just a musician, what do I know, but like this, the, we're not gonna have like, we're not going to have this sort of unified thing. And you're right, we do have to be more comfortable with discomfort, like, we have to be able to accept that a certain amount of that, you know, that means like, if there's a family in the park, playing music loud, well, maybe we don't need to call the cops on them. Maybe they're just playing music in the park. It's loud. And it's not that big a deal. You know, and trying to like, figure that things out. And or we need to get good at having those conversations and making those individual negotiations with with our neighbors all the time. Like, we should be, that's what we have to do. You know, and the idea, I think it's actually, I don't know that I would want a situation in which all the ideas were the same, right? Like, because I've heard this argument before about, like, you know, they're, you know, homogeneous cultures, and we're not, and therefore, we're different and special. And, yes, of course, but, but that that line of thinking starts from the idea that somehow everybody's thinking the same thing as a good thing. And I'm not sure that I'm convinced of that. So I think it's, it, it's true, that we all need to figure out, like, what level of discomfort Are we willing to bear. And that's like part of life, that's just part of life. Now, there's a certain amount of discomfort in the world, and that we should be working together with our neighbors, to decrease those discomforts when we can. Yeah, you know, in a way that kind of works for us, but like that, that's, that's asking a tremendous amount of work. From every from everybody. Absolutely. That's Yeah, you know, that's a hard thing. And it's hard to sell advertising against that for one. And it's hard to, you know, operate it. You know, it's just difficult, but it requires, that's actually what we need. Right. That's actually what we need. And, and our communication systems don't encourage it. You know, our communications. Systems encourage outrage. Yeah. So
Pete Turner 1:04:43
yeah, indignation, is that right? Yeah. And and I think to your point, intolerance is something that is not good for democracy and right, intolerance and bigotry. Easy to see in someone else damn hard to see ourselves. It's exceptionally hard to fight it off internal. Yeah.
Gaylord Dewalt 1:05:05
Yeah. And I think that there's, there's some layers where you can where you can, you can like, roll with a certain amount of intolerance, right? I can be 100%, intolerant of fascism. And without any question, like, I'm just not going to go there. You know, that kind of thing. You know, there are certain areas where again, like, you can kind of figure out well, what what are the where there is where we're all going to sort of like, this is going to be the basic ground rules of things. So there's a certain amount of that I think that's going to have to be but like, it's the real, the genuine issues, or the like the actual ones, not the hypothetical one. Like just the actual things that are really actually happening in any given moment, like our interactions with our neighbors, regardless of their backgrounds, and what they're wearing, or any of those kinds of like, things and just be like a we're all humans trying to get by here. How do we get by? How do we make this work? You know, and those are those kinds of skills are ones that we, you know, we all need to be developing, getting better at, and, and frankly, just helping to defuse the rage. You know, like that, the thing that we all need to be working on, in my opinion, is whether we're in business, you know, or in music, or walking around on the street in our lives, is like, how did this use the outrage? What are the best ways of doing that? And we could sit and argue maybe about what the best ways are. But as soon as that arguments done, we better start picking up some shovels and getting to work.
Pete Turner 1:06:43
Yeah, figure out where the work is get to work. And I guess,
Gaylord Dewalt 1:06:46
actually doing it, actually, because there's a lot of great ideas. There aren't a lot of people doing them. And you can be the person that
Pete Turner 1:06:54
tries all of them. That can be your work is like let's try this. You know?
Gaylord Dewalt 1:07:01
It's an experiment, right? Yeah, it's an experiment. We tried this thing. That note didn't work. I tried it, it didn't work. Yeah, try a different one. Because the person
Pete Turner 1:07:09
really is where it's at. And if you pursue something, you're going to find that note that you love and you're going to, you know, mess with it more I'm and you found playing the bass, but it's a lifelong pursuit. You're always learning more about your instrument, you're hearing new ideas from other people, you know, reverse bass on the ADA, wait, you know, it's like, wait, what if we just turn this sound around? Oh, I can do something with that. I mean, he got that thing. So in general, for the audience, here's, here's what I'm going to say is, everybody encourages you to vote, I'm going to encourage you to go get involved, I guarantee you there's an empty seat somewhere and within the school, the school community, or the or the alderman, if you have it, there's there's help needed there. There's help needed at the city level, the county level, the state level, where you can simply say, I would like to help. And what that will do is that will put you next to somebody you do not agree with, and you're going to work on solving problems together. And you'll be so far out in front of the vote. You'll be yes substantially more involved and and have a real role in democracy for a few hours a month. Do it. Why not? All right, man, how was that? That was over an hour, hour and 10 minutes. Easy, wasn't it?
Gaylord Dewalt 1:08:19
We could just sit in blab all day. Right? It's like
Pete Turner 1:08:23
we're taking ownership of these ideas, but I am going to tell you what I think.
Unknown Speaker 1:08:30
The guy yeah, I'm not gonna solve the world's problems. Certainly on gun violence in schools, you know? Yeah. Thoughts on it? You know, there are other people thought about it longer than I have. And I should probably be listening to that.
Pete Turner 1:08:44
Yeah, well, at least entertaining what they have to say. So anyhow, this is scalar dwelled everybody. You can find him on Facebook. He has videos up on his website with him playing the bass. You can see if you like, truly improvisational bass playing. And seriously,
Gaylord Dewalt 1:08:59
and even if you're don't like it, that's totally Oh,
Pete Turner 1:09:01
that's kind of the 45 if you don't like it, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But hey, so come on again. And I'd like to get you co hosting with me with some people that we find interesting and have more conversations because you and I yeah, have fun. Yeah.
Lions rock productions.
Unknown Speaker 0:05
This is Jay Mohr
Unknown Speaker 0:06
that Chris is Bryce
Unknown Speaker 0:07
texture from the offspring.
Unknown Speaker 0:10
Stewart Copeland, Randy Thomas is Dr. Bob Greenberg, Gabby
Jon Leon Guerrero 0:15
Reese. Rob bell. Hey, this is Johnny Andre
Pete Turner 0:17
and this is Pete a Turner.
Gaylord Dewalt 0:21
I'm Gaylord Dewalt Im an experimental double bassist, and I'm on the break it down show.
Niko Leon Guerrero 0:30
And now the breakdown show with john Leon Guerrero and Pete a Turner.
Pete Turner 0:37
Yes, Gaylord and I met Gosh, it's been years now, we're not often in the same room. But we definitely travel in the same circles. And so I love to introduce people from my expansive life. And it's it's nuts that I know so many people in so many parts, parts of the world, but it's true. And you all do so many incredible things. So yes, you are a musician, and you play the bass wonderfully. And this is a bass player heavy show. But you also do other things professionally dealing with data and you're a boy again, like me talk a little bit about the professional side, then I'm musical side first.
Gaylord Dewalt 1:13
Yeah, yeah. So it may it may come as a surprise to people but but being experimental double basis isn't always financially remunerative. So one of the ways that I make a go of it, is that I do strategy consulting, a lot of things around data, particularly marketing data, web data, are kind of areas that I can talk about a lot. Tons of like, weird SEO stuff. It ain't bragging if it's true, but like, I'm, I'm in the, you know, the top 10 of people who actually know what the hell is going on with things like search. So those those kinds of things, you know, pay for my music time. And that's kind of the way that I make all that go.
Pete Turner 1:56
Yeah, interesting. Talk a little bit about the base things then, when you I mean, that's obviously your spear passion. How long have you been playing bass?
Gaylord Dewalt 2:06
Man? I didn't plan since. I mean, I started playing electric when I was in seventh grade, because, you know, I was skinny guy, and how am I ever gonna get a girlfriend and start playing the electric bass and dance and, and he has switched to the upright, the double bass, you know, they've got a zillion names for the instrument, but the thing that looks like a cello, but on steroids, yeah, in high school, and then played that through college, and then kind of just kept, kept playing, you know, it's somewhere in the middle of college, kind of switched from sort of a been have had kind of a jazz background, and started getting into free jazz and experimental improvisation and those kinds of things. In late college, and then after college, like just kind of that's sort of where I ended up focusing on this kind of music, that that is as much about the physics of sound and the physical nature of sound and experiencing that, you know, is either an audience member with a group of people or on recordings, but it's thinking about sound in a, in a way that's maybe new or different, or it's certainly unlike what you might find on a normal radio or whatever. And normal radio stuff. That's great, too. I love that stuff. Sure, you know, play those things, too. But left to my own devices, I'm doing the unusual sounds.
Pete Turner 3:26
Well, when you so for the audience's benefit, if you try to define your world, it's very tough because you you sort of defy type, and you know, you, you are a sort of a, I don't know, I may be kind of a Janice kind of character real, like, you know, I like this, but I also like that, and it's both sides of the pancake, you know, so it's, yeah, yeah,
Gaylord Dewalt 3:52
we had a guy,
Pete Turner 3:54
what's that?
Gaylord Dewalt 3:55
I said, it's tons of that stuff is trying to find it ends up being like a blue end of that even like, you know, through my professional life, and everything else, I sort of think about, like, you're going to get, and I don't want to sound too lofty or anything, but you know, like the role of an artist. Yeah, the world is, in my opinion, to demonstrate through action, the alternative ways of living in the world that may or may not be, you know, obvious to people. And so like with my music, I am, I explore and experiment and some corners of it that are unusual that some people may have never heard before, although you could trace a line back to the 20s and 30s pretty easily with the kinds of sounds that I'm making. But also in the data and analytic side as well, where it's like, looking at data from different angles and new perspectives and drawing together a wide variety of sources in a way that's not not always, you know, the kind of thing you'd find in a textbook, but that you find by having actual raw experience in the world. And so both of those things kind of tie together and kind of an unusual way in terms of trying to codify and express lived experience through work, whether it's musical work, or data analytics. So
Pete Turner 5:22
let me jump in here. We had a guest on a little while ago named Dr. Stephen Alexander. And or Stefan Alexander. He's a a cosmologist. So he studies the stars. He's also a musician. Don't think you'll hear I'm going and he's he loves jazz. So he's like, I like to use jazz as a model to think about the cosmos. Because there's so much we don't know, we can get very linear and very tied to doctrine tied to literature. And and because of my jazz sensibilities, I can be comfortable. improvising, and looking for us our know, and taking that sour note somewhere that must resonate with you.
Gaylord Dewalt 6:04
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think it does for any improvising musician, I think a lot of jazz users and free improvisers and even the contemporary classical players and stuff, we always end up kind of applying that kind of stuff to our lives. It's like, it's, it's the art and music don't happen in a bubble that happen in our lives. And even for my friends, for whom all they do is music, you know, they still have lives. And improvising is a skill. You know, it's a skill that you develop over time, and some people are talented at from the get go. But mostly, it's a skill, you do it more and you get better at it. And a lot of it is like, like your friend said, it has to deal with a comfort level, like you can be comfortable with the unknown, can you how comfortable Can you be in an unknown situation. And jazz, I think it's a fantastic realm to explore that because, you know, in, like standards, jazz or traditional jazz that you might find at a bar or a club, you know, on a Wednesday or Thursday night in whatever town you're in, there's a general structure to the mood to the music, there's like a verse you know, or a chorus, or they call it a head. And then then there's the parts where people play solos, where they make it up as they go, and whatever way they do that, and then you come back to the head. And there's this, there's a clear framework within which this room to explore exists. And that's like life, right? Like, I get in my car, I need to go to the grocery store, and there's a construction on the street, and I you know, I can't just drive through the construction, I'm not a robot, I have to improvise. My how I'm going to get there. And I think that there are tons of those kinds of parallels in that the the musical mind is, it's a it's a distinct kind of way of approaching the world. You know, that's different from, say, a math or spreadsheet minded person, or a pure art visual person. But music is this interesting discipline that kind of encompasses aspects of mathematics and, and spatial, you know, cognition and that kind of stuff. Yeah, with everything else.
Pete Turner 8:17
Let me ask you this then. So, one of the things that I think that we both sort of specialize in when we're getting paid to advise a client is really striking a balance. We had an Olympic gold medalist named Eric Burgos, he's an aerialist and freestyle. So he flips and twists, you know, three, four times in the air. And he said, you know, the first Olympics, I didn't have that we're talking at the tip of the razor's edge. It's like I didn't, yeah, go for it. I didn't push it hard enough. And so I left things on the hill, that should have been in the air because I was holding back I can sure I was a solid, and I didn't win gold that year. The next Olympics, he had the right amount of looseness, you know, like, still there's the regiment and the work, but there was the confidence and the looseness to win gold. You know, and at that level, everybody's trying to find that moment. And then the following Olympics, he was too loose, too confident. Yeah. And he just missed it again. So there's, there's a parallel there in life in general. And I imagine would you have someone who runs a business and you're trying to help them improve things, it's one thing to create a system that's efficient, but that system will create that the efficient system will create inefficiencies because you get so bound by the system?
Gaylord Dewalt 9:34
Yeah. Bad. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So that's like, that's like, the thing that I love to love to go on about is dreadful efficiency, right? So there comes a moment in which the efficiency doesn't happen. Okay, so you, you get the finance guy, it's always the guy in this case, who is like, we need to cut back on everything to so that we were profitable, because that's, you know, that makes sense. It's part of, you know, whether we're profitable or not as an equation. And if we lower the expenses, then, you know, theoretically, if we can lower them far enough, then we'll be profitable. But, but often times, there's no, nobody is really clear which parts to cut, you know, so the parts that get cut are based on, you know, internal cultural values or cultural cues, not necessarily based on maybe what should get cut or shouldn't get cut. And so what ends up happening is, is you can get this sort of this feedback loop in which you're cutting the things that actually were had an important factor in generating revenue. And now you have to cut more, because you're on the other side of that become profitable equation, the generation of revenue is going down at the same, you know, cutting. So figuring out and figuring that stuff out is really hard. And it's why it's why businesses hire sentence because they know that internally, that they're their own cultural blinders are going to say, Oh, well, we should just cut marketing entirely, because they don't add any value to the bottom line. But that, you know, because there may be a bunch of engineers or something like that. And then they realize that engineers aren't very good at convincing people to buy something. And so it becomes, it becomes an important thing to get this outside perspective, you know, kind of going into and saying, Well, okay, yeah, maybe some of the marketing needs to go, but you need to look at which pieces of it need to go or, or maybe it's like, actually, you guys need to make a better product because your product sucks. And nobody's willing to admit that, you know, things like that. And that's and to be a consultant. Really, that's like our role, you know, and I usually say that, like, when I roll into a business, I'm like, here's the thing. I'm not going to be here in six months, which means that if somebody needs to hear some bad news, yeah, you know, if some bad news needs to be shared somebody and you're afraid to say it out loud, because you've got a mortgage, and you're trying to pay for your kid. Yes, stuff. Yes. Let me know what it is. I'm happy to crawl underneath the bus because I'm not going to be here in six months anyway. Yeah, you know, let's get it. Let's get it fixed. And, you know, if, if it's a bad idea, you can blame me. And if it turns out to be a good idea, give you credit. You know, once we know that the road is clear, because it doesn't matter to me, you know, I just want to do my job and roll out. So the, this the dreadful efficiency thing is real, you know, it's so real. And it's something that people run into, because it's, we all think, oh, efficiency is good. It's good. And, but it's also important to realize what sometimes valuable things come from inefficiencies. Yeah. You know, sometimes new ideas are generated, because you're dealing with this inefficient thing, and then a new idea pops into your head. You know, in the same way that I guess, you know, people experience you know, aha moments while they're taking a shower. You know, they they weren't like efficiently sitting at their desks at their planned moment of inspiration that just happens when it happens. And if our days are rigidly structured so that we are accomplishing something and being efficient 24 seven, we never get to experience the looseness that your friend the aerialist needed to win gold never have, if you never have time to experience that looseness, then the big breakthrough ideas aren't going to they just aren't going to happen. You know, and that's a cultural commitment for for business to say, we're going to be 10% inefficient. You know, I think if someone got up in front of the board and said Our goal is to be 80% efficient as a business, everyone would be like, what the hell? That's it. Yeah. But honestly, if you look at a lot of like biological systems and stuff like that, that it's important to do like your immune system, your immune system needs to chew at something if it doesn't chew it, something that chews at you, right. So, you know, it's not like it's too crazy. It's not like one of Taylor's crazy, Vermont hippie ideas. This is, you know, we've got lots of examples of this kind of thing going on. Yeah,
Pete Turner 14:18
yeah. And you said a lot of really good things that I want to capture. But but there's just so many. So I'm just gonna, we're often run in here. I mean, this is fantastic. So a lot of what we're going to do, is, is paralleled I mean, when I'm on the ground at a combat zone, I'm looking for those things where like, you're trying to create stability. If I can't find stability, from a stability output from this effort that you're endeavoring within, we have to back up and that stuff under the bus. That's where the work is. And you can say things like, Oh, you know, we want to grow market share. Yeah, but where's the work? Is it is it you want to cut marketing? Well, maybe you have enough marketing products, but you're not distilling enough things out of that that didn't like so. When I talk about podcasting with businesses, they say, you know, am I going to be able to sell pianos? I don't fucking know. Right? You know, but what I can tell you is that I'm going to give you 50 hours of content that you can carve up and do whatever you want with, you can pull quotes, you can do whole Instagram, pro cam, giving you all this dense product. Yeah, you have to refine it into things that work for you. If you have a marketing department, they can now help your sales people by creating more awareness and more familiarity. So can I sell pianos? Fuck yeah, I can sell pianos Do you have people that can tune the piano? You know, it's very challenging to get someone who's business minded. And this is what I'm going to go with this thing was business, Jonathan has a certain discipline, but doesn't have that. Anthony Ian arena has been on the show before today, he talks about the importance of getting an MFA over an MBA, if you have a fine arts background, you're forcing yourself to be under comfortable with your MBA self. And in between those things, you're going to find your path and it's never linear, it's sometimes you gotta run in a circle five times concentric circle, to get launched out. Talk about that, finding that discomfort. We're like jazz or improvisation, we're like, we're hit the sour note, you're like, No, I'm gonna live right here.
Gaylord Dewalt 16:21
Yeah, and that's. So first of all, I love the MFA MBA thing, partially because, you know, nine times out of 10, when I'm walking into a situation that's truly fucked up, there was an MBA in there before me, you know, almost always, when someone starts off the conversation, when we have this MBA, and I start to get in the back of my head, this is going to be a very profitable conversation for me. Because I don't know what it is about MBAs, but the they often when they make when they make mistakes, so how they make really interesting ones. But the thing about the thing about improvisation and this, I think ties, it ties to a lot of the other kind of areas where were you and I open lab as well is, is it does have to do with this idea of adapting to the existing environment, like being able to observe the environment, and place yourself within it, have an understanding of your own capabilities. And knowing like, Okay, I'm, I'm improvising right now. And there are certain things that I'm good at that I can do very well. And there are certain things that I can't do very well that I know that like, I need a little work on. But right now is right now, and I have to do them and, and you have to find, find whatever it is within you to like make that work and or surround yourself with other people that can work with you that you know, cover those gaps, etc. And that like for me, like when I think about the like to tie it into the you know, the Jon Voight stuff, frankly, is that, like improvisation, musical improvisation is one of the most flexible ways to practice that to actually like, how do you practice doing things in the moment without, you know, how do you practice that like brain plasticity that's required to make decisions functionally in a stressful moment, without, you know, without the training being something that gets you killed? And, and music is like a place for that. Like, particularly like improvisation, whether it's standards, jazz, it has a structure that's a little safer. You like, Okay, I know what keys and chords and stuff are, or whether it's the stuff that I do that's just wide open, free terrain, and you just have to make it and feel uncomfortable until you till you get it worked out either way, but it provides a an opportunity for the person who's doing it to experience like, whoops, I screwed that up, or this thing is coming at me that I don't understand, I don't know what going on, how do I deal with it. And, and having to be, again, be aware of what your capabilities are. And you and use that it's I think it's like a it's a, it's pretty abstract. But it's, it's a, I believe, an effective way to actually practice that feeling. And you know, so it's not obviously, like, doing improvisation on the base is not going to make me a better marksman, but it does help me prepare my mind for those kinds of tasks. And that and that's like the thing that I think that's important in looking at, you know, experimental music or those kinds of things, experiences that those of us who do that we have that thing and we do it all, like I do it all the time, where people who play jazz are doing it all the time. And and as you mentioned, like, other people who've been on the show, mention it pretty much anyone who's a musician will tell you that that we carry that experience, what we did in the music, we carry that with us into the world. There's an interesting thing that I didn't realize until earlier, but a friend of mine has. She's got a website that focuses on it's it's based in Seattle, and it basically is a listing of all of the community orchestra, you know, events that happen in Seattle. And she was telling me that Seattle has like the highest per capita number of like community orchestras, like there's a tremendous number of musicians that are in Seattle, which, and it turns out that a lot of them are working for like Microsoft and Amazon and everything else is that these people who work in those kinds of fields, technology fields, and stuff tend to be have have like a musical kind of corner of their mind. So when I think about like, you know, success within the tech industry, etc. I'm like, Well, yeah, of course, they're all musicians. You know, they're all musicians, and they're practicing a certain flexibility and improvisation in their lives.
Pete Turner 21:03
Yeah, this the improvisational comfort to so one of the things, concepts that I think about is limit ality and there's, there's limited time, but I'm more of a liberal traveler and you you are true from what the sounds of us, you understand the concept. So a great example of this is this. And I'll just call it a three legged stool. I think there's probably more than that. But the three legged stool, the ethical problem conundrum, that this whole Colin Kaepernick thing brings up and I'm not going to put you on a position, but I know you can handle the improvisation with me. So we've got three different things. There's the people that are like, go, Colin Kaepernick go, you know, we have to fight on justice. There's the folks that say, hey, that flag represents some significant sacrifice and benefits for us better knock that shut off. And then there's the blue lines, blue Lives Matter, folks are like, Quit making my loved ones or my job harder than it already is more dangerous. All three of those groups are right, but not exclusively. So understand that guys, like us can get in and say, I totally get it like, yeah, if you're a black dude in the city, and you get pulled over by a cop or a black dude in the suburbs, you you are afraid for your very life. And or in a country, frankly, but in the country. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and as an American, I'm ashamed that we still have this problem. But yeah, you're saying it's, you know, we don't mean to offend veterans or people that back veterans, you don't get to say that. And the people, you know, so there's all these counter views that people want to take one side, and it's uncomfortable to go sit in the blue Lives Matter chair? Because, sure, it's just nasty business. When you look at it that way, what does it take, does a CEO need to be able to sit on top of that stool and say, I get all three of you that you're all right, and yet, not exclusively, so
Gaylord Dewalt 23:01
I don't know, you know, I really don't know, I think a CEO, it really depends on the culture of the organization, right? Like, the the CEO needs to be able to provide the vision for the organization. You know, that's what the CEO really needs to do. And maybe some kind of operations manager needs to have a totally solid draft of all the different things and play it up. But I think it would probably be better for everybody, if the CEO just took the position that the CEO takes, you know, and if if whichever, those three or other perhaps even, you know, viewpoints are there, then that's what the CEO takes, and then take your lumps from that, take your lumps, and move on and set the vision for the organization. You know, that's that the role of the CEO is really at it, in my opinion, is really at a vision setting kind of zone. And, and a good CEO is going to know how to have their like, a Do they have a dog in that fight? The weather people take a knee or not at at the national anthem? Does it? Like is it it? Does it really matter? If a refrigerator sales company, you know, has a position on that? Is that relevant to the world in any way? Right? You know, those kinds of being able to make a decision, like, is this a fight, I need to be sure. And if it is, you know, and maybe it is, if it is then then you pick your, I'd say pick your thing and and stick with it. You know, even if it's one that I disagree with, I'd say you know, that's that's how you feel about I'm not ever going to tell someone not to like operate the way they feel Unless, you know, it's going to result in imminent danger to somebody right now. So I guess that's where I go with it. I don't think a CEO necessary. I mean, a good CEO or smart individual is going to, is probably going to be able to like figure that stuff out and make it make a sound decision. But the the, you know, he or she has to look at like, well, what's my business? Yeah, what's my corporate culture? What are my and what are my employees? What's, what's their statement? Do they? Do they need? Do my employees need leadership on this? You know, is is that why I'm going to take a position on it? Does my industry need leadership on this? And does my business need to be in this particular fight? You know, I think there's a lot of those, you know, that that, you know, they probably, maybe everybody should be, like, genuinely involved in this discussion, it's an important one, you know, it's an important one for our country to kind of look at that, and there's a ton of different very nuanced ways of discussing it, you know, I, I know, as many veterans as not who support taking a knee, so it, you know, the, the, their issues on that, and same actually, you know, with, with, with police organizations, too. So it's, there's, I think there's a lot of different ways of looking at it. And fortunately, our media ecology is one that favors a very brief, not very nuanced conversation, and money is made more on outrage than it is on actual discussion. And I think I get the CEO actually wants to, like, do the real work, like, do this do what needs to be done in the world? Then, you know, they're going to have to crawl under the bus. Yeah, and start having those conversations with their employees, with the public. And just clearly state their state. They're saying, that's, that's where I go with that. Yeah, Lee, but you know, I think that's where you can flip a coin on that. First, at first up is like, dude, is that is that a fight you need to be? Right? Is that one where you could just walk across the street? And, you know, hang out for a little bit? Or? Or do you need to do the research within your organization, I think that's probably the biggest risk that the CEO is going to have is,
Jon Leon Guerrero 26:58
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Pete Turner 27:12
So if you're launching or expanding your social media presence, your business or your personal brand, or if you just want to take your media presence to the next level,
Jon Leon Guerrero 27:20
reach out to us on Twitter,
Pete Turner 27:21
at Pete a Turner,
Jon Leon Guerrero 27:23
or at john LG 69, I had to break it down show, there's 1000 ways to get ahold of us now enjoy the show.
Gaylord Dewalt 27:30
Or do you need to do the research within your organization, I think that's probably the biggest risk that the CEO is going to have is choosing choosing a position on that. And they're going to quickly discover that a large number of their employees don't agree with them, no matter which position they take on a particularly on that one, the industries that I tend to work with, you know, retaining talent is a very difficult thing. So yeah, you have to figure that out.
Pete Turner 27:55
Let's talk about that talent thing, because there's such an access. So I've got a show called popping the bubble, and everybody should listen to it, because it's fucking awesome. It's about technology, in terms of startup culture, and entrepreneurial ideas, and it's such a fascinating thing to hear these people talk about different things. And God damn it, I lost my train of thought, What did you just say?
Gaylord Dewalt 28:19
We were talking about talented.
Pete Turner 28:22
Okay, yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so, with all this stuff, one of my favorite questions to ask is we have all this access to information. Are we any wiser? What do you think? No? Okay. You know, no, no.
Gaylord Dewalt 28:41
Question. We're still got two legs, two arms. You know, so it's, you know, we're still human beings, we're not any wiser you could pump more data into the system, and that doesn't make it a better system. It can help. Yeah, certainly. But you know, a lot of times the idea with data all the time and, and how companies gather and what they do with it after they gather it. And there's, more often than not, people are gathering more data than they need. Yeah. Which, consequently, it's not just like, it's not easy to do that, like they have to store it, they have to gather it, they have to maintain systems that collect it. So in a lot of cases, they're just outright paying for it. And when they're not outright paying for it, they're paying their staff to deal with it. So it's not like it's easy to gather all this data. And what happens is you get in a meeting, and someone says, should we gather this or not? Someone will always say, yeah, we should gather. And if if we can gather, it will gather it, you know, it's part of the sort of other weird Maxim of like, you know, you can't manage it unless you can measure it. And so therefore, everything gets measured. But then the downside is, you're only managing two things that can be measured, and you miss all the nuance of life. So anyway, I could go on for days about this one. But no, having more data does not mean take us in wiser. Having more time to think is what makes us wiser, having more time to sit and reflect and think, and kind of rolling back to the efficiency. What's ending up happening is we're spending a lot of time chasing our tail to gather more data, and process more data. And, and we're taking that time, from the time that we formerly would be able to sit and think about the data. You know, that's that 20% inefficient, like, just let's just stare at that spreadsheet for 10 minutes and see what happens. You know,
Pete Turner 30:35
yeah, well, even if that spreadsheet is the right, the right thing to look at, you know, like we have these we have these outputs, like for example, so I talked a lot about effect over effect. And right you know, it's such a people are alive, but effects of it. No, it's not, it's also a noun. And if you fucking shut up for a second and listening like,
Gaylord Dewalt 30:56
right one has an A and one hasn't he come on.
Pete Turner 31:00
But like, if you can create the response to stimuli that is in the ballpark, even of what you're going for, then you're going in the right direction. So here's an example. So on LinkedIn, they have a powerful veteran front face, they're always pushing, pushing, pushing, and I am calling out LinkedIn on this. It's fine with me because it's true. I defy someone because I certainly can't engage those veterans inside LinkedIn in a positive way. I know they have some people that can it but I can't. I've tried tons of times. The LA Times put out a thing saying, Hey, we want to do a sports based podcast and the sports editors to point of contact. So go to this page and email him I did that asked me how many responses I've had asked me Go ahead.
Gaylord Dewalt 31:46
How many responses you had none.
Pete Turner 31:48
So here you have this system that's created an enormous efficiency not only have you not found someone that's talented, and looking to help and knocking Yeah, opening the door saying Hello, yes. But yeah, you don't have it now. I hate no hate. But now I have a real distaste for LinkedIn. And I'm glad to spread that because because of the lack of response, and same thing with LA Times, and I've sent the the editor an email every Monday for the last four weeks and never gotten if you can't handle the work, then that's fine. But understand you creating a terrible outcome. By doing Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 32:23
yeah, but probably paying for it probably paying money to generate that terrible outcome. Like a, it's a crazy little zone, you know, it's like, it's, it had a great idea like, hey, put your mind it's good idea. And, but kind of other than that, like, it's like, there's no social network in the network, and 90% of the emails that one gets by way of our contacts, one gets by way of LinkedIn aren't valuable, right, there just aren't, you know, a random email from from the web is probably going to be more valuable to me than than my Lincoln's. But that said, like, having my LinkedIn profile, the profile itself is incredibly valuable to me, you know, I know lots of people who go and look at my profile, and they're like, you've got the best profile in the world, and I want to do business, but like, but they don't contact me through LinkedIn, you know, they can't there, they already found me the way LinkedIn works, somebody already knows who you are, and they're just doing their due diligence, right, that's where LinkedIn is valuable. Unfortunately, for LinkedIn, they are not sure how to make money off of that, they've probably got some time to work it out. So no big deal. But the that kind of stuff, you know, connect that to like, the even if you're looking at the right data, right? Is that are you looking at the right is the right person looking at the right data? You know, so that's another, another kind of area of that is like, okay, we've put out this ad and we, and we send it to these people, and they're responding to it. But it's whatever that that that message is, is not like connected on the back end to somebody who's actually going to respond to it. You know, and that's an internal cultural problem. It's a problem. I would say it's LinkedIn problem, because they're, they're hosting that interaction. Sure. But the problem also, the genuine problem, is that La, la times people aren't like, I don't know what's broken there, but somewhere to separate us.
Pete Turner 34:26
So like, I'm talking like, Daniel savages title that LinkedIn is head of military and veteran programs at LinkedIn. I cannot get that I've connected with them. But I cannot get that guy's time a day. Yeah, I want to give him access to the podcast talk about what they do. Right. But he will Yeah.
Gaylord Dewalt 34:43
You know,
Pete Turner 34:44
he won't return my call. And maybe he's busy. Let's see, I'm sure he gets his dog and his mom loves him. But, you
Gaylord Dewalt 34:50
know, of course, of course. But
Pete Turner 34:52
yeah, the time thing is, like,
Unknown Speaker 34:54
if you've got like, you've got a title that says that my job is to connect with these people, then then you need to have some way of managing that. I mean, it doesn't, you know, if his if his intern got back to you, you wouldn't be psyched, but you'd be okay with it.
Pete Turner 35:08
Yeah. Cool. You know, this is
Unknown Speaker 35:11
the I, you know, I'm writing back and got your message. something's going to happen, you know, not just like basic business stuff, which, I guess is basic to us, but maybe not to the people. And the, you know,
Pete Turner 35:24
so it's, it is a weird, dynamic. Yeah. And then the LA Times is like, you know, we want this high end person to come in and do a challenging podcast, but not really. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 35:37
yeah. Well, that happens with any institution, right? So say they want something because they know that it's, they know that someone in their garage is making the podcast, it's going to put them out of business. Right, ya know, that that's happening, ya know, that that's happening. But at the same time, the reason that they haven't already built that podcast on their own internally, is because their culture doesn't support it. Right? Right. If their culture supported that kind of thinking already, then they would already have that podcast, but it doesn't. And so the problem is, and I encountered this a bunch to I bet you do as well, you know, CEO goes to the conference somewhere, and they come back saying, We need to do something cutting edge, blah, blah, blah, yeah. And so they get fired up about it, and a bunch of people run around with the hair on fire, and they say, let's hire somebody that's cutting edge, and then they do it. And then it's and then they try to make that cutting edge person, you know, wear a suit and tie and show up at nine and leave at five and, you know, be a normal, you know, worker grown. And that doesn't work because the culture, the culture, that breeds the kind of person who's going to do a cutting edge thing? Doesn't inspiration doesn't happen between nine and five, what happens when it happens?
Pete Turner 36:48
Yes, you know, it's personally not Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 36:51
it's just, yeah, it's just, it happens when it happens, you know, they kind of make it that improvisation side again, it's like, you know, for the free music that I make like this, just like 123, let's start playing, see what happens. It's not all of this may come as a surprise, it's not all pleasant to listen to. You might go to a show of this and, and be like, Yeah, I was at a two hour show, there were 245 minute sets of which five minutes were amazing. And the rest of the time, I had to leave, I wanted to get out. I couldn't, you know, I was dying. And that's, that's the way in my experience, innovation works, too. You know, it's you don't get to choose which five is might not be the first five minutes, it might be the five minutes. Part, what you don't know when those five minutes are gonna, you know, they're going to happen, because you've done it enough. And you can trust the process. You can trust your skills, but you don't know that it's going to happen between 9am and 5pm. You don't know that, you know, and you're comfortable with it, because you've done it, like you made this music and you know it. And the same thing I think is true for these kinds of innovations. Things were the if if their culture supported it, they'd already make it, they wouldn't be looking to buy it. And we see this in buyouts, like, you know, company buyouts all the time. You know, Apple is like, you know, famous for this, so by a company that we like, and then that's a bummer. Adobe did that how many like awesome pieces of software that Adobe buy? And then like, destroy? Yeah, actually, yeah. Now, like, that happens all the time, or Microsoft, they had they bought, they did a, like a mercy hire of a G of one of these genius mobile developers whose business wasn't going well, or whatever. And, you know, couldn't couldn't let the person actually innovate. Now, that's its cultural, its cultural. And I know that that's like an area of your your own expertise is I'm sure you see these things. But it's, it's a cultural problem. You can't just say, Oh, I'm going to hire the innovative person. You can't, because the reason you didn't hire them already, is that there's you you have to fix something inside. You have, you have to be the kind of place where that person wants to apply.
Pete Turner 39:06
Yeah. Yeah. What exactly and going back to that cutting edge person is sharp, they're nimble, in you are your darling machine. So yeah, you want to retain talent, cutting edge talent, you have to be able to withstand the lack of comfort that having something really sharp walk around a bunch of people that are adult and I don't mean in terms of an intellect. But in terms of capability, it's dangerous to have a sharp knife running around, because you might get cut, you know, and
Gaylord Dewalt 39:38
yeah, so Exactly, exactly. When I
Pete Turner 39:43
say it again,
Gaylord Dewalt 39:45
I was saying I just said, that's exactly the case, you know, that that's like, would you have someone who's in and it might not even like be necessarily be a mean or nasty or whatever not like, right, you know that you have someone who's incredibly skilled and talented walking around all day, people are going to pick up, pick up on that and raise their game. Now you've got a whole floor full of people who have just upscaled themselves in six months. And now they all want to raise it, right. Because now they all know, suddenly, they know what they're worth. And they're starting to think about the world in a different way. Because that's really what for me, anyway, that's like the goal, right? To get everybody to think about the world more deeply, you know, more consistent with their own values, whatever they are, even if they're ones that I have, or I would rather someone wear it out on on their sleeves, so that I can steer clear them or, or eliminate the threat quicker. But it's like, the goal is to be able to, you know, live more freely, right. And when, especially when you look at the like the difference between working in a in a normal, like a day job kind of situation versus like a freelancer or consultant, an independent contractor, entrepreneurial minded person, you know, there are different different acceptances of risk that the different groups take. And sometimes, you know, mixing and matching those two squads of people, you know, can have unpredictable results, sometimes great. And most of the time, I think, probably great, unpredictable results, but but the leader has to be able to inspire the kind of appreciation for leadership, you know, that whole mechanism needs to be in place. And that's all again, it's hard. That's hard work. You don't learn it in an MBA.
Pete Turner 41:35
Yeah, right. You're right about that. And let's kind of go back to that, let's go back up and hit that wall again. So one of the things when I talked to folks who who lead is a talk about how culture just despises define design, culture and design don't get along well. So even if your design thinking, because you can't just design culture, culture, culture is accelerating effect, right? And that drives people nuts to think that you can't just say, yeah, we you know, he, everybody's got a corporate culture officer now, and they're all doing it. But if you can't talk intelligently about CQ, if you're talking about EQ, you've only got part of the picture. And if you don't know what CQ and EQ are, then you really don't have a proper professional cultural program. And I would say also, that, from my experience, at least, you have to study your culture externally, someone needs to pick the get under the bus and go, let's take a look at what your culture is. What do you think?
Gaylord Dewalt 42:33
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Because you can't, it's just difficult to see the system from within the system. And that, and the, the, the rewards, and, you know, mechanisms for rewards are just, it's too, it's too close. You know, it's too close. Like, if a person just isn't going to be that objective enough to do a truly good job, you could probably get go along the way. If you've got someone who's like, amazingly, you know, tuned in, or tuned out, maybe, but the getting an outside perspective, is kind of the way to go on that kind of thing, because it's the same way like, you know, the anthropology work, right, that's what we're talking about. Apology work, to get an ethnography of what's going on in, in the organization itself. And, and to, and to approach it. Because I think what happens, honestly, I think what happens internally, is that, you know, you're as likely to get people who are too focused on the negative as you are on the positive. And sometimes you're going to get the kind of person who's like, Oh, no, everything's great. And I just wrote a report about how great we are. And then other people are going to write a report about man, we're miserable, his report about how miserable we are. And the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, and then it's a matter of like, you know, going back to the efficiency thing of like, figuring out, okay, which of these terrible things are actually responsible for us making money? And can we find a way to do that more humanely? And, you know, and that kind of thing? And it's, it's, it's tricky, and I think you're absolutely right about, like, you can't design a culture, because it's, it's the culture is a product of a society, right? It's, it's a product of the of the people who agree to share it, you know, and, and, and corporations and stuff are already kind of at a disadvantage there. Because people, they're only agreeing to, they're only agreeing to share that culture because they need to pay the rent. Yeah, that's, that's your starting point. I know until you get to be the kind of inspiring business that people want to work for, for free. And, and I don't know that anybody's ever really going to get there. Some, you know, there's things you can be psyched to, like, I'm like, I could tell my mom, I work for Apple or whatever. And she knows it is, and that's great. But, but you know, it's still like, the reason they're agreeing to share it is a is a recent source intensive kind of situation. And it's, and and how do you navigate all that stuff? And, I mean, you can, I guess, theoretically, you could design a culture, but then you know, you'd be a fascist, like you could do with that method, right? And that's not like, we don't want that, right. So like, that's been tried, it's not effective in the long run. You know, and it doesn't yield very innovative results. So skip that. And instead, like, get, get messy with it, and figure figure it out from the people that you work with. And I mean, there's obviously processes and stuff you can put in place. Sure. But, you know, once you start having, and some of those things do need to just be spelled out, because again, the only reason these these people are choosing to share this culture together is to get a paycheck, which means you're going to get people with a wide variety of opinions about different things. Yeah. So it's good to like, you know, get it straight from the get go, like, Hey, we're not harassing people here is going to be a safe workplace environment, you know, just in case anybody was curious, like, we're going to do those things. But then once you get beyond those basics of like, how do we, you know, maintain a safe environment to have our ideas together? You know, then it's just like, do we provide the time and I, for me, that's the thing I see the most is, is time do we have is their time in the day? Is this a workplace in which people have the time to reflect on their work? You know, and most places don't? Because it's not efficient? Yeah. Like, there is no product to measure on that. Like, you know, how many hours of reflection did you do today? or whatever, I've, you know, there's no thing to measure and therefore doesn't get managed and gets swept under the bus? Because, you know, you will, it's easier to manage how many widgets got widgets that day?
Pete Turner 46:55
Yeah, how many widgets kept widget ties that they were talking to Gaillard walled, who's a musician but also a consultant. And if you're not getting like the how cool he is, and Lloyd is tell you, he's he's awesome. He, he's a, he's a damn know, good liberal, liberal hippie from from the northeast, who also loves guns.
Gaylord Dewalt 47:12
So as I tell all of my friends, I am I am the most liberal person, you know. And, and I'm man sighs accurate up to 600 yards.
Pete Turner 47:25
Well, that brings up a good point. And we talked a lot about the concept of where the work is, you know, because that's if people have caught that, like, that's what we're really trying to define that like, No, no, no, that's what you want to have happen. But no shit, where's the work. So this guns in schools debate is and we're not going to get into the debate, but we're gonna, we're going to highlight like where the work is. So we can go after the Second Amendment. But there's rules to that. And there's a huge political fight and you're moving, you know, millions of people towards something they don't want to go towards. Or you can harden schools. And that doesn't mean put guns in church, teachers hands, but we can find more ways to protect holistically. We can work on techniques for the, you know, there's a lot of things that can be done tactically right now, today, and also understand that the school resource officer, one dude with the pistol, you shoot out the 600 meters, if there is an active shooter, and you're the guy at the school with the pistol, how far away Do you think you need to be to safely take that shot in that situation?
Gaylord Dewalt 48:22
Yeah, yeah. I want to be that guy.
Pete Turner 48:24
Yeah, exactly. And you can't train for that. I mean, like, you think we put a lot on the police. I was talking with Fred. You know, you know, Fred, you must know, Fred. Yeah, I was talking to Fred Leland the other day about just you know, what we expect that cops have for training and what the reality is reality is maybe once a year, they shoot a hand, not handful. They shoot a box of bullets, 50 to 100 bullets, maybe maybe once a year.
Gaylord Dewalt 48:48
Yeah, we all know that, like, time to train with those firearms, we know what the like, you can find what the you know, the accuracy rate is not very good.
Pete Turner 48:57
Right, in standing still and shooting at something that's
Gaylord Dewalt 49:01
let's say, it's rare range
Pete Turner 49:02
as far as 10 meters away, you know, under no stress, you know, with the gun likely already out, because no one wants to get shot at the range, you know, and, and you're blinking a piece of paper, and there's no, there's no fluidity. There's no
Gaylord Dewalt 49:18
ball on the other side of that. Yeah.
Pete Turner 49:20
Right. So we unfairly expect all these things and we're going to go after the second amendment that just seems like that's a great go do that affects your passion. But that seems to be something that's so tangential to where the problem is keeping kids safe. How do you how do you communicate this to people in a way that makes sense? And it doesn't have to be about kids in school? But like in terms of big hairy problems, how do you get people to slow down and get down to the net? where the where the actual differences can be made?
Gaylord Dewalt 49:53
Yeah, I think that's, I mean, and that's a, that's a big, you know, big, scary debate for lot of different people, you know, like, and as you might imagine, me and my friends disagree pretty heartily on a lot of, you know, things regarding the Second Amendment, the first thing I usually encourage people to do is read, there's a book called gun fight, and I encourage them to reduce about the Heller case in DC and kind of like, lays out the political groundwork a little bit, you know, for how, how do we have this recommend that we have today and you know, what's going on with it? And, and, you know, there are certain players in it that, you know, you'd be surprised to find out which side of the certain things they have actually been on in certain circumstances. You're like, oh, the guys are doing that's weird. But I think like, when you when it gets right down to, you know, kids in the danger of having kids in schools, and people with guns and come in and shoot out, I'm like, that's a I don't have the solution to that. Yeah. The I think like what you're talking about in terms of like architecture changes, things like that all make sense. It gets harder, though, when you save, like, How hard is it to pass a school budget in any given town? Yeah, it's not easy, right? It's not easy. And if we're going to like change the way the buildings are built, and designed and structured, those have to somehow pass and there are there are a lot of people who would rather not give any money to public education. So there's, you know, you're going to end up with a wide variety of political conversations about it. And but I do think I do think it's good to be having them. And I think it's good to have those conversations immediately. I don't I don't like some people always say, Oh, we need to wait a certain amount of time before we talk about it stuck. I'm like, hell no, start talking right now. Sure. We should have we should be I mean, this is probably a discussion we should always be having, frankly, because it's it's one where, you know, we're looking around kids getting shot, I'm not into that. I'm not into it. There. So I think it's I think it's responsible firearms owners should be willing to engage in that conversation at a time. Because, you know, that's it, that's a scary thing. And and people are going to have questions about it. And I think the larger problem with it is just the polarization. Yeah, that that occurs around pretty much every issue in the in the world today, or in the in the country today is a highly polarized nature of it makes it difficult to have a genuine conversation. So like a when someone approaches me about about firearms or whatever, and you know, it, like I have to check my own self to make sure that I'm like, you know, lyst at genuinely listening to what their concern is, and then I have to genuinely think about, well, what is what is the, the way forward here? You know, I mean, I think, ultimately, it's just at the legal layer of things. There's the there's the Second Amendment, and it's in there, and unless, unless that gets changed, it's probably going to stay in there. Yeah, I think that it is a genuine, you know, for those who are, who prefer the second amendment to be the way it is, or to, you know, to have gun rights that are as liberal as they are in my state. The, the challenge really, is to remember that that states could decide to start having that that vote, you know, about, let's change the constitution. So it's not like it's not a 100% given. So so it is, and that's why I think it is important for people who do support the Second Amendment, to be willing to engage in honest conversation with people at any time, frankly, and that includes right after a tragedy. And that includes when a tragedy isn't happening, and until, like, set aside issues of political party or any of that other like, bullshit, and just be Yeah, well, let's talk about it. And let's talk about it. Because those, I think that, like, the minds aren't going to be changed by large. You know, they're going to be changed one by one, right? I guess it's going to be individual conversations, going to look at it and say, Well, okay, the problem here is actually this or actually, that, you know, like, and I think that there are some areas where I would like to see, pro Second Amendment organizations be more active, like I would have a lot more faith in the more well known Second Amendment activists, activists, if they were also if they had like, a
incredibly active program about like gun suicide, or things like that. Because, like, when we look at the data, right, this is a roll into the data that a lot of the gun deaths in the states are the suicides, right, you know, so. So that's an area where we can all agree, like, boy, me, great, if there were fewer of those, what can we do about that? You know, that's, it's not the same as, like, the homicides and especially as a school or something like that. But like, Where are the areas that we can cooperate? Like, where are the areas that are like, that are easy, and actually have as, as visible a presence, about, you know, things like suicide, as we do about things like my right to carry? semi auto, you know, down the street or something like that, which is, frankly, ridiculous to do. But you have to like to do it. Great. But you know, that, that, I think that's, I don't know, I don't have the answer to it.
Pete Turner 55:51
No, you're not supposed to, but but you have the ability to have the conversation, which, unfortunately, is way too rare these days. Yeah. I'm not calling now.
Gaylord Dewalt 56:01
And we're both sides of the roots were on both sides of the other thing, you know, sometimes on, because I train a lot. And so I find myself in the company of people with whom I disagree very, very greatly on a large number of political, you know, yeah. It's like, it's like, Hey, man, I've already read that talking point. You know, I know that I've already read them. I subscribe to that email list to actually talk about and, and obviously, my friends and loved ones on the left are also get very, you know, can get pretty hectic as well. Sure.
Pete Turner 56:38
Yeah. You know, it's a funny thing. Gosh, there's so many things to talk about. But, you know, there's not that I'm aware of, at least there's not an organization defending the third amendment. And it's, it's weird that the second takes such things. And we use the arguments of like, you know, did the founding fathers and 10 because there wasn't that kind of, you know, weapon capacity. Same thing is true for the first amendment in and, and, and again, the third. So here's the third, right, and then we go to another country, and we break the third. And, you know, that's not their third amendment. But we break that right, that we just hold us an automatic now I think like, it's everything settled. We don't want to quarter troops in our homes. But we go to someone else's country. And we're like, Hey, get out. Yeah. And then we expect democracy to be fostered there. And it's just the side.
Gaylord Dewalt 57:32
No, yeah. Yeah. It's tricky. It's tricky. It's like, well, there. Are they the enemy. Are they not is the civilian. I mean, there's a whole like, layer of, you know, within America, I think there's a whole ancient thing in our brain stems about, like, we have a diff, we have difficulty distinguishing between justice and punishment. Yeah, I know, it's very difficult, I think, for us as a society to distinguish between justice and punishment. Yeah. And so I think that like when we, when we are when our troops are in another country, we're thinking about punishment, we're going to punish them for what they did to us that made us go there. They're civilians,
Pete Turner 58:15
right?
Gaylord Dewalt 58:16
They're less than us either. Yeah. And it doesn't matter, right. They're all like, the first thing we're going to do is make it all one enemy. And then at that point, it doesn't matter. Right, we're going to, they somehow are responsible for whatever it is that got sent over there. So I think that that's an that's a difficult thing, right? That's a difficult thing. And we see it ourselves, even on our own soil was like the difference between someone who has, you know, served their time done, what the state has asked them to do for whatever crime they've committed. But, you know, there are still like, do we still punish them for even though they've done what they were supposed to do? Or, you know, those kinds of and those are, again, these guys do not have the answers. I'm not right on these things. But it's, it's an area that like, requires genuine civic and civil conversation. Sure. Maybe not even that civil, you know, I'm okay, if people like want to shout and scream and stuff, I think sometimes being angry is appropriate. And I think that like getting worked up about like, tone policing, it usually tends to favor one group and and disadvantage another. So it's okay, that civil, but it does have to happen and be genuine. You know, about these, and particularly, I think, if the issue of punishment and justice, what the differences between those two things are there's also
Pete Turner 59:38
a important difference between adversary and combatant, you know, yeah. And politically, we are way too willing. And when people talk about civil war, I just like, Look, say when, like, if you really want to throw down, you got to pick the wrong guy argue with because, you know, if you're walking around about about a 600 meters away, you're not good blocking anymore. I come on. You asking about someone who knows cold, hard business, and you're trying to tell me you're into cold? No, you're not? No, you're not. Right. You know, you want to disagree? Plus, I'm not I'm not. I'm not even against them, you know, post the time. Like, I'm actually not against you. I'm just pointing out a valid opposite viewpoint. You know, like you say, people who are are certifiably insane, shouldn't have weapons. Okay, so should they be able to vote? Well, hey, hold on a second, you can't take someone's right to vote, but they can't own a different things. Like, it's a viable question, you know? Or who decides?
Gaylord Dewalt 1:00:38
reasonable? It's a reasonable conversation. Yeah. And I could see it in a cup. Whatever way it comes out. It comes out. Yeah. You know, like, like, the whole, like, extending, like, you know, worries about slippery slopes and so on, you know, it's like, No, you just have you actually, and this is what sucks about this democracy. You have to have every conversation. Yeah. And you have to have it, you have to have it on its own merit. And maybe, maybe you you say, okay, insane, people shouldn't have firearms, and then, and then someone brings up well, okay, well, maybe they shouldn't be able to vote to and then we're going to have them we start that conversation and work it out from there. You know, it's, I think that like, everything is always up for grabs in a democracy.
Pete Turner 1:01:29
I want to take a few more minutes if you've got them. And I just want to bring up this conversation because I love hearing you talking about so one of the points I bring up like people always use, let's say, some Northern European country, or Japan or Australia, but let's just say Denmark, look at how Denmark does it. But what Denmark doesn't have, they have unity, right? The opposite of diversity is unity. So if you're going to have a diverse, rich country, like we have, you're going to have a lot of discomfort. You know, and I'm saying discomfort, on purpose, or miss comfort, be even, it might be better, you're gonna have a lot of discomfort and a lot of disagreement on with the direction we go. Because you've got first generation people, multi generational people, this religion, that religion, no religion, and you're asking for a singularity and thought, and I just don't know that that is a good goal. It's like, what zero sum game?
Gaylord Dewalt 1:02:25
Yeah, good. No, we're not. Yeah, we're not gonna have, you know, and again, I'm just a musician, what do I know, but like this, the, we're not gonna have like, we're not going to have this sort of unified thing. And you're right, we do have to be more comfortable with discomfort, like, we have to be able to accept that a certain amount of that, you know, that means like, if there's a family in the park, playing music loud, well, maybe we don't need to call the cops on them. Maybe they're just playing music in the park. It's loud. And it's not that big a deal. You know, and trying to like, figure that things out. And or we need to get good at having those conversations and making those individual negotiations with with our neighbors all the time. Like, we should be, that's what we have to do. You know, and the idea, I think it's actually, I don't know that I would want a situation in which all the ideas were the same, right? Like, because I've heard this argument before about, like, you know, they're, you know, homogeneous cultures, and we're not, and therefore, we're different and special. And, yes, of course, but, but that that line of thinking starts from the idea that somehow everybody's thinking the same thing as a good thing. And I'm not sure that I'm convinced of that. So I think it's, it, it's true, that we all need to figure out, like, what level of discomfort Are we willing to bear. And that's like part of life, that's just part of life. Now, there's a certain amount of discomfort in the world, and that we should be working together with our neighbors, to decrease those discomforts when we can. Yeah, you know, in a way that kind of works for us, but like that, that's, that's asking a tremendous amount of work. From every from everybody. Absolutely. That's Yeah, you know, that's a hard thing. And it's hard to sell advertising against that for one. And it's hard to, you know, operate it. You know, it's just difficult, but it requires, that's actually what we need. Right. That's actually what we need. And, and our communication systems don't encourage it. You know, our communications. Systems encourage outrage. Yeah. So
Pete Turner 1:04:43
yeah, indignation, is that right? Yeah. And and I think to your point, intolerance is something that is not good for democracy and right, intolerance and bigotry. Easy to see in someone else damn hard to see ourselves. It's exceptionally hard to fight it off internal. Yeah.
Gaylord Dewalt 1:05:05
Yeah. And I think that there's, there's some layers where you can where you can, you can like, roll with a certain amount of intolerance, right? I can be 100%, intolerant of fascism. And without any question, like, I'm just not going to go there. You know, that kind of thing. You know, there are certain areas where again, like, you can kind of figure out well, what what are the where there is where we're all going to sort of like, this is going to be the basic ground rules of things. So there's a certain amount of that I think that's going to have to be but like, it's the real, the genuine issues, or the like the actual ones, not the hypothetical one. Like just the actual things that are really actually happening in any given moment, like our interactions with our neighbors, regardless of their backgrounds, and what they're wearing, or any of those kinds of like, things and just be like a we're all humans trying to get by here. How do we get by? How do we make this work? You know, and those are those kinds of skills are ones that we, you know, we all need to be developing, getting better at, and, and frankly, just helping to defuse the rage. You know, like that, the thing that we all need to be working on, in my opinion, is whether we're in business, you know, or in music, or walking around on the street in our lives, is like, how did this use the outrage? What are the best ways of doing that? And we could sit and argue maybe about what the best ways are. But as soon as that arguments done, we better start picking up some shovels and getting to work.
Pete Turner 1:06:43
Yeah, figure out where the work is get to work. And I guess,
Gaylord Dewalt 1:06:46
actually doing it, actually, because there's a lot of great ideas. There aren't a lot of people doing them. And you can be the person that
Pete Turner 1:06:54
tries all of them. That can be your work is like let's try this. You know?
Gaylord Dewalt 1:07:01
It's an experiment, right? Yeah, it's an experiment. We tried this thing. That note didn't work. I tried it, it didn't work. Yeah, try a different one. Because the person
Pete Turner 1:07:09
really is where it's at. And if you pursue something, you're going to find that note that you love and you're going to, you know, mess with it more I'm and you found playing the bass, but it's a lifelong pursuit. You're always learning more about your instrument, you're hearing new ideas from other people, you know, reverse bass on the ADA, wait, you know, it's like, wait, what if we just turn this sound around? Oh, I can do something with that. I mean, he got that thing. So in general, for the audience, here's, here's what I'm going to say is, everybody encourages you to vote, I'm going to encourage you to go get involved, I guarantee you there's an empty seat somewhere and within the school, the school community, or the or the alderman, if you have it, there's there's help needed there. There's help needed at the city level, the county level, the state level, where you can simply say, I would like to help. And what that will do is that will put you next to somebody you do not agree with, and you're going to work on solving problems together. And you'll be so far out in front of the vote. You'll be yes substantially more involved and and have a real role in democracy for a few hours a month. Do it. Why not? All right, man, how was that? That was over an hour, hour and 10 minutes. Easy, wasn't it?
Gaylord Dewalt 1:08:19
We could just sit in blab all day. Right? It's like
Pete Turner 1:08:23
we're taking ownership of these ideas, but I am going to tell you what I think.
Unknown Speaker 1:08:30
The guy yeah, I'm not gonna solve the world's problems. Certainly on gun violence in schools, you know? Yeah. Thoughts on it? You know, there are other people thought about it longer than I have. And I should probably be listening to that.
Pete Turner 1:08:44
Yeah, well, at least entertaining what they have to say. So anyhow, this is scalar dwelled everybody. You can find him on Facebook. He has videos up on his website with him playing the bass. You can see if you like, truly improvisational bass playing. And seriously,
Gaylord Dewalt 1:08:59
and even if you're don't like it, that's totally Oh,
Pete Turner 1:09:01
that's kind of the 45 if you don't like it, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But hey, so come on again. And I'd like to get you co hosting with me with some people that we find interesting and have more conversations because you and I yeah, have fun. Yeah.