James Gagliano – The FBI’s Straight Shooting AIC

James Gagliano – The FBI’s Straight Shooting AIC - James is a life long public servant. From his plebe year at West Point to 30+ years later completing a career with the FBI James has worked to keep the US safe from harm. 

James speaks on CNN and writes for various publications

Check out James' website 

Today, besides studying for a PhD at St John's, James is TV pundit for channels like CNN. Pete A Turner and Gagliano talk about his their shared disappointment with the FBI and former Director James Comey. 

Haiku
James Gagliano
A pundit on CNN
Joins Pete for a Chat

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Join us in supporting Save the Brave as we battle PTSD. www.savethebrave.org​

Executive Producer/Host/Intro: Pete A. Turner https://youtu.be/mYoUxRJzXcA 
Producer: Damjan Gjorgjiev ​ ​​​

The Break It Down Show is your favorite best, new podcast, featuring 5 episodes a week with great interviews highlighting world-class guests from a wide array of topics. Get in contact with Pete at www.peteaturner.com www.breakitdownshow.com

Transcription

Pete Turner  0:01  
Everybody Pete a Turner, executive producer and host of your break it down show with our episode featuring James Galliano who is a retired FBI agent, a former Army officer, a West Point grad. Now he teaches school at St. John's and is also a PhD candidate. And you for sure have seen his writing in a variety of publications talking about the FBI, and analysis in that field, whether it's being critical of James Comey or talking about specific cases. He's also a commentator on CNN as well. So you should for sure if you've watched CNN, you've seen him give his expert opinion on a variety of things. Now, look, we get into a fantastic conversation, like very few people can and we apparently see the world in a very similar way. So I think you will enjoy. ​

Pete Turner  0:01  
Everybody Pete a Turner, executive producer and host of your break it down show with our episode featuring James Galliano who is a retired FBI agent, a former Army officer, a West Point grad. Now he teaches school at St. John's and is also a PhD candidate. And you for sure have seen his writing in a variety of publications talking about the FBI, and analysis in that field, whether it's being critical of James Comey or talking about specific cases. He's also a commentator on CNN as well. So you should for sure if you've watched CNN, you've seen him give his expert opinion on a variety of things. Now, look, we get into a fantastic conversation, like very few people can and we apparently see the world in a very similar way. So I think you will enjoy. Look, James can talk he talks for a living, and I think you'll enjoy this conversation because we get in we get fast we get to work and provide quite a bit of commentary and critique. Okay. If you Want to support the show, which hopefully you do. And if you're new here, check it out new shows five days a week on a variety of topics today is James colliano. There'll be something on health and fitness later in the week. And that'd be music. Oh my gosh. Again, we've got a really huge guest. Everything seems to be lined up, but we're going to get the lead singer from clutch on the show. So we have all kinds of fantastic things coming up. And we'll continue to do that. So here's a support the show you can buy the shirts and break it down, show calm, you can subscribe on YouTube on Tosh, spreaker, Stitcher, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts, we're there to do a reading and a review that really helps out if you can lift up the messages when we post them and tell your friends about it. That's how you support the show. Okay, enough about that. You know what I'm going to say next. Here's where here's where we talk about the charity work that we do here we talk about save the brave, save the brave.org. If you want to help us help veterans with PTSD, like myself, I'm actually having a pretty bad day today. Right? It's things like Save the brave and the events that we put on that help give veterans community and give us purpose. That's what you're doing when you're contributing to these things. Now, if that's not your thing, but you do want to help with charity, and you want to do something for someone special, give a charity on top gift card, go to charity on top.org you give a gift card, like let's say, Hey, I'm gonna give Pete 50 bucks I don't care what he uses it for whatever charity he wants. So you send me a $50 gift card. Now I can give it to 1.8 different million charities here in the United States. Anybody can give charity you can always give it as a gift or even as something on top $5 Who cares? give that extra something to someone and really make a difference in the life and do that a charity on top.org All right, here comes James Galliano, lions rock productions.

Unknown Speaker  2:49  
This is Jay Morrison.

Unknown Speaker  2:50  
This is Jordan. Dexter from the offspring nakedly Sebastian Yost has written

Pete Turner  2:55  
Rob Stewart COPPA. This is Mitch Alexis handy somebody there's a skunk Baxter Gabby Reese is Rob This is john Leon Guerrero. Hey and this is Pete a Turner.

james gagliano  3:05  
Hey, this is James Galliano and you are listening to the break it down show.

Pete Turner  3:12  
I have to remember the soft G is sometimes in play in Italian so good.

Unknown Speaker  3:17  
I grew up in the deep south. Do you think I ever could worry about that? So I answered anything and everything in the 1970s in the deep south, so

Pete Turner  3:27  
yeah, good extra vows like Gagliano.

james gagliano  3:31  
Right. Oh, you wouldn't you wouldn't believe some of the bastardized versions of

Pete Turner  3:36  
my name but it's all good. It is it is all good. And you know, as army guys, we've all been called. I mean, your name is actually hard a little bit because there's different ways to say it. But Turner, I was called Tucker Taylor. Tyler, like, like because I'd be trying. All you have to do is look at my name. You can't act like it's hard, but they they got it wrong all the time. All the time. Absolutely. Yep. Yes. James is on and look, if you guys don't already know who James is, do a Bing search and he'll come up and you can look at his commentary on CNN. He's written all over in all the publications. He's a 25 year FBI guy who dealt with crime and murder and gangs and all that stuff in Newburgh, New York. He also is a former Army Ranger, a Academy grad, obviously, someone who is his well seasoned and steeped, but it's funny because all of these great American hero qualities that you possess your family having a legacy of servers and everything, and you just can't stop running your mouth. That's what you do the best I think.

Unknown Speaker  4:42  
Yeah, I think, you know, for me to be able to find a niche. You know, I spent 33 years in the military and in law enforcement when you combine my Academy time, my regular army time, and obviously you mentioned the 25 years in the FBI 33 years of doing that, and how is ever going to parlay that into You know, into an opportunity post FBI, post government service, where you know, I get an opportunity to talk for a living and it It truly is a blessing. I mean, I think communication is, is such an important and undersold part of the human condition. I think how we communicate how we say things, what we decided to talk about is absolutely so critically important. And brother, I am blessed for opportunities just like this, to talk in to communicate with people and try to find some type of common ground and polarizing issues. Yeah, probably we are. We are so polarized, polarized polarized right now.

Pete Turner  5:37  
It's, it's incredible. And one of the things as I went through and I looked at your stuff, you know, I think guys like us, you know, maybe you lean a little right, maybe you lean a little left, but there's like a routing. That's really right down the middle with folks like us because you seen what hard living looks like, you know, you bet you worked in Newberg where it was the murder capital of the nation for a while for being a small town. So you've seen what true adversity looks like not that regular versity isn't there, but it gives you a voice that's uncommon. And it does provide that context. Because we can get lost on our own little side of things and not realize, hey, all you got to do is flip the camera around and things get really different.

Unknown Speaker  6:20  
Yeah, I think, you know, that's the misnomer. You know, we live in this country now, actually, this world where everything's a binary choice. Yeah, you're either with us or you're with the terrorists. You're either for police, or you know, you hate police. And my thing is, I am a law and order guy I absolutely, you know, admit to and hew to the conservative side of things. But I also have a human component and an ability to look at things and say, Hey, sometimes when you're looking at causality, it's not as easy as and I hate to use, you know, black and white, but it's not as easy or simple as black and white or the binary choice. You do have to look at things from the color Saudi perspective and say, Hey, listen, some of us in this country have been blessed. We started out on first or second base, some people on third base, other people started in the dugout and had to scramble just to get up to bat, I appreciate that I try to make sure that any of my law enforcement analysis is is you use the word steeped in that. But again, I am a generally a law and order type of guy, I believe in a country that has the rule of law, it's important, you know, we walk down the street, and we appreciate the fact that in this country, there are laws and we have to adhere to them and hue to them in a polite society. But I also try to see the other side too. And I think that's important in any type of discussion.

Pete Turner  7:40  
Yeah, because ultimately, you look around. And when people complain about the 1%, I always encourage them to scope the camera back a little bit and take a look around and if you're in the United States, boy, let me tell you something, you're doing pretty good. For those that don't know, we poop in portable water, you know, so it's things are pretty good around here. And we can lose sight of that to like, turn the camera around but also back it up some and take a look around. There are so many things that do seem to divide us and the FBI is wonderful in that you can't just kit that people in the US anymore. That's not a viable profession for a criminal in a lot of the world. It is viable. So, I mean, God bless you guys for doing all that stuff and helping take care of that. But there is a tarnishing. You know, as a counterintelligence guy, and I don't want to go down the whole road. I just want to kind of touch on this as an example. And when when, you know, when Director Comey comes out and says that, you know, Secretary Clinton, it was cool that she had TSS ci on her home server. I I struggled to take the department, the bureau as a whole seriously and you understand why

Unknown Speaker  8:51  
hundred percent and, and yeah, you raise a good point here again, you know, I think as I've gotten older you know, You go to West Point you learn duty on a country you learn everything is black and white, right? There's right there's wrong. There's honor, there's dishonor. And unfortunately, one of the things I think is a young 1819 2021 year old kid, learning that ethos, which is so critical and so important for young military leaders to learn. The world is far more made up of shades of grey than it is Stark, black and whites and you highlighted two of them, you know, if you if you mentioned Donald Trump, for example, or as you just did James comi or Hillary Clinton, people have a stark, you know, reaction to that there's no yeah, I haven't formed an opinion yet. There's no yes or no, there's hate them or love them. And I always say this because I served in the FBI for 25 years. The FBI has been around since 1908. In all of that time, and think about that, you know, 100 and, you know, almost 120 years in all of that time of the FBI there have only been eight formal Senate approved FBI directors, right. There's only been eight of them. I served under four of them. The last one was James called me. I appreciated James Call me when he was the FBI director. Look, I didn't like the fact that he wore non white standard button down shirts with rep ties and dark suits and capital shoes. I didn't like the fact that he was pushing against what the traditional J. Edgar Hoover vision of the FBI was. But I also appreciate the fact that he looked at some really tough topics like how inner city communities, how and we'll say, you know, communities of color, and their relationships with law enforcement have turned to where they are now saying 2014 2015 after Trayvon Martin and the Michael Brown shooting and all these different things, and I appreciate the fact that he had the cronies to put his finger and touch the third rail of law enforcement which is dealing with this this this bad This imperfect relationship we have with community scholar. I thought that was amazing. Yeah. However, however, my caveat to that is, James Comey also did some things because we're all flawed, complex human beings fact that there were eight or nine different instances where he had interactions with, you know, the President Elect and the president once President Trump became our 45th President, or I thought a six foot eight imposing figure a man who's the the leader of the premier law enforcement agency, not in the country, but in the world should have pushed back and should have said, Sir, I disagree with that. Or Sir, what are you asking me to do? And uniquely, he just he did as little as possible to get out of the situation and then waited until later to leak documents to the New York Times, not even by himself. He did it through a surrogate which made it even one more step removed from having some courage. And, and that part of it, look, I'm disappointed. I've been very as you pointed out, I've been very critical on social media. been very critical, not bad comms. But we're all flawed human beings. We're all complex individuals. And I look at somebody like James called me and say, Gosh, he did some good things. Yeah, but damn, there's some things about him that I don't respect. And I think that that pretty much covers all of us brother. You know, I think it's a great example. I try to think about that too, in that like, okay, so to love or hate Donald Trump, he's not a binary outcome there, there is good. And if you can't accept the good that he does, then you're the bigger problem. Like, we have to look at these things with a more rational sense. And I'm prepared to be wrong because I have been a zillion times. I am prepared to be hypocrite but the things

Pete Turner  12:38  
that I say and and to absolutely contradict myself at all times. And and I can't, I can't disallow that to anybody else. And also, just about everybody is trying to do their best in that moment, you know, for the most part, and that's sort of my trust in humanity. And, you know, whether they've done you know, the worst thing possible they've taken someone else's life. purpose, you know, doesn't mean they're a wholly evil person, you know, we have to we have to allow some balancing of the scale, even if it goes down to the heavy side on evil. You know, there is some good debt that we have to be able to recognize and see otherwise we're just not doing it. Well.

Unknown Speaker  13:17  
Yeah, I come down on that issue the same way you do. I do believe that mankind is inherently good. yet. I also as you you acknowledge, recognize it, there's some people that just don't want to play nice in the sandbox and some people that have to be incapacitated by putting them away and incarcerating them. But I'll tell you what, I watched you know, we're all in quarantine right now. So yeah, my website you got to get off a Netflix because you're just it's like, I sit down and I become glued to the TV like a little kid. And I recently watched I can't remember the name of the documentary, but it was about the Bard prison initiative. The BPI Hmm, my mind was blown. What they did was in upstate New York, they sent for professors from Bard University from Bard College in New York, up to these universities went to a female prison, a number of them two different male prisons. And they carefully hand selected inmates that they felt were even if they had a horrific they gone to jail for horrific crimes, murder assault rate, but inmates that have been incarcerated, that had shown that they, they were attempting to become rehabilitated, they gave them the opportunity to get an associate's degree, and then to work towards a bachelor's degree. I was fascinated. And look, I would love you know, I teach at St. John's University. I'm working towards my doctorate there. But I would love to have been part become part of that program. They require you I think, in most senses to have a terminal degree and I'm just not there yet. But the opportunity to go into a prison and to sit down with 15 or 20 inmates and you hear these guys, you would think you were just in a regular college classroom with Yes, they're older than the average college student. But the questions and the debates that were going on the discourse are going on, it goes back to the point you made earlier about, we lose out on that rehabilitation piece. And there's people that complain and say, I don't want my tax dollars being wasted on inmates, you know, having back rubs and massages and getting to go to school. But when those men do get out, and like you pointed out the vast majority of them, there's an expiration date for their prison set, they're going to get out, would you rather they get out, have a degree and become a productive member of society? Would you rather them come back and go straight back to the corner and revert back to hustling? Because they can't get a job anywhere else?

Pete Turner  15:32  
Yeah. How many trapdoors Do you want under those guys? You know, I mean, they've already proven that that you know, they'll go the ultimate length. You're talking about the prison Chronicles off, Mike, before we got started, but this this is a good transition into something that's really more valuable than talking about the political side of things because we aren't great at prisons. One of the doctors that's on the prison Chronicle. She talks about how, you know, I asked her the question, do we incarcerate too many people and she said, by far we're just entirely too many people. That go to jail. And some of them need it, but not because they're criminals because there's there's the mental health problem that comes into this whole thing. And then the other side of it is, is as we run people through these programs, what are the programs we have detailed is advanced piece, it's devoted bogans program where they invite, you know, the most violent 25 guys in the county. And they go, let's run you through this. Basically, case management thing. Like we're sorry, we left you behind. And when you flip the camera around, and you look at those guys looking at the phone or looking at society, one of the guys in the show says prison was an extension of my community. That's not what I want as an American.

Unknown Speaker  16:39  
Yeah, what we've got to be careful about and it's something you pointed out, you know, Newberg where I work for a number of years, mostly from 2008 to 2012. In combat in the violent street gangs, the Bloods and the Latin Kings that were that were at war with each other and they weren't only killing themselves, but innocent people were getting killed in the in the crossfire, which also Son made it an issue that people stood up and took notice of. But we talked about restorative justice. And again, it goes back to corrections. What what is what is the purpose of corrections? It's incapacitation, it's deterrence, you know, it's punitive. It's rehabilitative, it's done the right way. The other part is restorative. Yes, victims deserve restitution or restoration. You can't bring a person back that somebody that some inmate is killed, but what can you do to make that life that is now that second life that now goes to jail for a long period of time? How do you then make that a productive life? Yes, the worst of the worst, that are never going to get out. We understand that that some people just small percentage, but are just they have to be incarcerated. But the ones that do get out to your point, and that's the vast majority of them. What are they able to do in society and for society, and if they don't have any skills, if they don't have any, you know, knowledge or tools, then they just revert back to what they know. That's the problem. We've got it. I mean, before the Coronavirus, we had a bustling economy we have, you know, jobs that were all over being developed and, and opportunities being out there. But the problem is if you're a felon, if you're a convicted felon, you lose rights. And when you come out and you have to be honest on a job application and say, Hey, I just did a 25 year bid on rape or murder, whatever. It makes it really difficult to get rehired. So then what are we doing? And again, I'm not pretending that the answers to that I'm not pretending to think that I know how to fix that. But that's something that talking about it and getting bright minds together. It's something we gotta address because you're right. We do have an incarceration problem. And I'm not suggesting that people that are in jail don't don't deserve to be there. Of course, why is it in a developed nation like ours, that is so wealthy and so you know, you know, industrialized and so you know, the envy of the world, the best military the best this the best economy? Why can't we put minds together great minds, to come up with some way to fix that? prob

Pete Turner  19:00  
Yeah, yeah, there's a book behind you on your shelf by Mario Puzo that talks about non traditional government, you know, and that that that is the way to go. But there are other ways that that countries do this. There's, you know, find penal systems and half of the countries around the world, they don't exist, they handled through through civil law, you know, penal systems just are very expensive. And as we're seeing in our country, they're problematic. And as much as I'm like, I'm pretty hard on the prison industrial complex, we created a problem of not being able to house enough of our own people if we needed to contract that out.

Unknown Speaker  19:37  
Yeah. And again, there's another one that you know, I wish I had an answer to and I kind of compare you refer to the prison industrial complex, which is very congruent with the military industrial complex. And, look, I was a young, you know, infantry Lieutenant during the Cold War, you know, stationed at Fort Benning, Georgia and Fort Drum, New York. This is right around the time. At the height of the Cold War, where the military began to outsource particular jobs that they didn't want to even during the Reagan, you know, military buildup, our cooks and our male clerks and people that worked at the clinic, a lot of them became they used to be military positions, and then they became civilian positions. Once we went to war in 2001, once the Global War on Terror began after we were attacked in on 911. My gosh, my periods of time in Afghanistan, I was there three separate times on short tours, not 13 month long tours two or three months at a time. My experiences there were all the jobs that were done, you know, by logisticians, and people behind the scenes, because remember, for every infantryman in a foxhole, there's nine people supporting them that are living the male being faith leaders, you know, being attorneys being artillery, men, all those different things, but the military had it had to begin to outsource so much of it. That obviously caused panic. Because you look at it from the contractor perspective, we were paying guys huge sums of money to come and do different things that the military should have done, but we just didn't have we didn't have the resources to do it. That's reality. You know, it's not just on the prison side, but it's also the reality on the military side, how do we address that the, you know, the part where it becomes civilian eyes and I just made that word up. But we're we're using more and more civilians to handle things that experts and professionals and field have always handled.

Pete Turner  21:31  
Yeah, the and, and sometimes rightfully so sometimes you indeed that seasoned warrant officer who knows how to run that piece of equipment and how to fix it, you know, you need an expert there. And so in some cases, that makes sense. We can have retired guys deal with the mail. You know, like that makes a lot of sense. But there's, there's far too many people that are doing far too much. If we're going to go abroad, and we're going to do these things. We've got to do a better job. Taking care of all the people that go and and maybe being a little less willing to go all the time you might write in this you stood on the deck of the USS Cole after it was blown up.

Unknown Speaker  22:10  
So you remember this is back in December of 2000. And I was I was still a member of the FBI hostage rescue team. That's the counter terror unit that, you know, basically was stood up in 1983. Because the government we had just gotten the 84 Olympics, you know, to be delivered to Los Angeles. And and the US government realized we didn't have a mechanism in place. God forbid if something happened, like the 1972 Olympics in Munich where, you know, kidnappings and hostage takings or any type of, you know, critical incident. You can't, it's very difficult to suspend Posse Comitatus and have the US military perform law enforcement function. Yeah, that was that was a creation of the FBI hostage rescue team. So when in December of 2000, when al Qaeda terrorists attacked the USS Cole In the Gulf of Aden, I was a shooter on on the hostage rescue team, a member of eco Team Blue assault. We went wheels up at Andrews Air Force Base right away and got sent there to secure the ship and you're probably your listeners are thinking, what the heck is the FBI got to deal with, with with a American warship that gets you know, that gets attacked by terrorists. But that worship is US soil, even if it is in, you know, someone else's territorial waters, just like an embassy, the German Embassy in Manhattan. That footprint belongs to Germany, a US Embassy in Tanzania or in Nairobi. It's us soil and so was this worship. So we secured secured the ship. And then obviously once all the wounded were taken off and sent to you know, medical facilities in Landstuhl in Germany, when the FBI investigators came in to figure out what happened who was behind it. We provided security for them in Yemen. So that was my Wouldn't want to say it was my first introduction to the Middle East back in 2000. I'd been there before. But that was where I spent the most time. I want to take a real quick aside to because you bring up an important point that's topical. And that's why I wanted to make this real quick, john, real quick. You talked about, you know, the challenges of putting military people to work inside the US. When we look at all of the crazy responses to this pandemic going on. Getting the National Guard out in the streets to put the National Guard and bullets and guns into the same immediate location very, very tough. Most the time the guard is going to create capacity. They're there. They're a man hour uplift that an emergency manager turns on to help a governor accomplish filling sandbags or whatever it's going to be. Will you speak a little bit to like what happens when the guard does deploy in times of crisis and how it's not a you know, military suppression of freedom? Sure. I think you know, for some of your older listeners and i and i know you You have an age demographic that covers a wide spectrum. But for some of your older listeners, they'll remember Kent State in what happened when the National Guard was sent there to quell some of the student riots that were going on during the height of the Vietnam War. And a lot of times these National Guard soldiers, they were, I don't want to say untrained, but let's just say let's just say they were less trained than active duty troops are obviously a lot of the National Guard today. They have seen multiple combat tours. These aren't, you know, shaking bakes as we would say, in the military, you know, people that, Okay, I'm going to make you a captain or I'm going to make you a staff sergeant. These are people that have seen combat. Now, the mission here is very different. I mean, the mission here is, you know, to help distribute, you know, surgical mass to help describe, you know, make sure that ventilators get to the right place to help. Make sure that, you know, God forbid, and I hate to use this term because people their heads will explode when I say martial law, but God Big martial law ever had to be established where you had to put troops out there to say, you cannot be on the street, you know, look at us. We're not doing this in person, you're in your home a long way away from me inside my home. And I understand this, this podcast work. But this is how a lot of the news media works right now. This is how a lot of businesses are working. This is our new reality right now. And I'm kind of ashamed to say that as you know, the FBI is New York City crisis management coordinator for a number of years back in the early aughts. You know, pandemic was a tiny appendices on the back of my crisis response, right? Because when is that ever gonna happen? I'm focused on Al Qaeda. I'm focused on Hurricane Katrina. I'm focused on things that and you'll appreciate this as a military guy. generals are always accused of fighting the last war. I mean, I can handle al Qaeda, I can handle you know, Hurricane Katrina. Those are things we dealt with and we we've got a lot of institutional knowledge on that. When it comes to a pandemic, people's heads are exploding. Yeah, we don't have to deal with this because it's something different. How the National Guard gets used, I think, until martial law, and I'm not suggesting anyone who said martial law is going to be imposed. But until no less martial law gets imposed where you would have to have the National Guard out. I think right now, it is a support role, right. It is in a help to distribute supplies, it is to help, you know, do anything that a state governor requires them to do, but it's not in a law enforcement, a military or a martial law impose type of response.

Pete Turner  27:33  
Yeah. And that was just a quick aside, I want to get back to looking at conflict and crime. You know, across the decades, we're going to have Clint hill on Clint Hill was the Secret Service guy that jumps on the back of the Kennedy limousine moments after the President was shot. You know, so in his this this guy's still around like his lifetime. He's seen, you know, Korean War, Vietnam or all of the political Based assassinations in the 60s. Both Kennedy brothers Martin Luther King, Malcolm X. I mean, the list goes on and on and on. And then you know, we have the 70s you very clearly from your high school days, remember that, that that incident in Toronto, where, you know, we lost our embassy and just all of this struggle and strife yet somehow we we have this sense that this is the most cataclysmic damaging time in US history. I just don't i don't see it. I don't I don't I don't get it Damn, helped me understand.

Unknown Speaker  28:34  
Yeah, so I'm gonna I'm gonna take off my I'm gonna take off my law enforcement analysts cap for a second I'm going to put on my military history professor cam here. I think that's how we're conditioned as Americans. And I think I learned this early on, you know, even before 911 but you know, let's go back to the to the Marine Corps barracks bombings over in the Middle East and things like that, that happened back during the late 70s and early 80s that the hijackings that took place, I think, for Americans, we often there's, there's a great saying that, you know, when you're dealing with committed jihadists, you know, and just to use them as an example, they don't think in terms of day to day, they think in terms of generations, Americans can't see past the end of their nose, we're concerned about what is going to be on Netflix tomorrow night, or what's going on down at the yacht club next Thursday. We don't see and sense things generationally, the same way that people that live in austere environments, parts of the world, poor people, folks, like, you know, somebody that's going to fight for the Northern Alliance or for the Taliban in Afghanistan, or for Al Qaeda or for ISIS. They don't have a lot. They don't have a lot of possessions and worldly goods, but they think in long term projections that Americans aren't built to do so. Now, having said that, as we look backwards and you pointed it out yesterday. The political assassinations in the 60s, the unrest we had in the 70s. Some of the riots in the early 70s, the 68 Democratic Convention, you talk about the things that happened. Hell, it wasn't that long ago that half of our country went to war against the other half of our country. In 600,000 people were killed 1.5 million casualties. And back then we didn't have 330 people, 330 million people in this country. It was a much smaller country. It was a huge, huge part of our country that was ripped asunder. So I agree with you. Look, I'm not old enough to remember the civil rights movement. I was born in 1965. But look, in 1964, the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1965, the Voting Rights Act passed, people got murdered, people got beaten on the Edmund Pettus Bridge. Things happen that we look at it now we go, Okay, we're upset right now because some people like Trump, some people don't like Trump. Some people like Clinton, some people like bye But I look at the way you do I put it into perspective and say his toughest times. All right now, this country has has has obliterated the scourge of slavery. It took a while, but we did it. They've gone after fascism back in the 30s and the 40s against Hitler and the Axis powers. They have done all kinds of good things in this world and dealt with things that at the time, people thought it was not just an existential threat, but that America would dissolve and come apart at the seams. We survived it and came out stronger. And I look at this the same way. Yes, we're muddling around right now. Yes, we're making some mistakes. Yes, there are unfortunately some casualties that people we can never bring back due to this. But I think we strongly unite and we come together.

Pete Turner  31:42  
Yeah, I agree. The I think the nation is going you know, consistently in the right direction, trying to do greater things and and like people, we've got our good nor bad we do things. Some things really well other things really poorly and just illustrate and I know I say this a lot on the show, but it's just always shot. the shit out of me when I think about it. president john Tyler died in the 1860s as an old man, he was born in the 1700s. He has grandkids that are still alive, but great grandkids, grandkids. So that's how young our three generations would take us back to the beginning of our country. That mean that's, that's how new we are as a country. And when we look at the block of time, like when when you came of age, you know, the very late 70s to the mid 80s, German disco bombings, Beirut barracks, also, the station chief Buckley in Beirut gets snatched up and tortured and killed. john lennon is assassinated, the President is shot, you know that. It's all this stuff in Toronto, Jim Jones. All of these crazy things that were in our site Geist in our immediate vicinity. And it seems like you take that snapshot, you're like, holy shit, that's a terrible time. We had a gas show. During that time, you know where we had gas rationing, rationing of gas we haven't had things rationed in forever You know where we like odd license plate even license plate of the days you could go get fuel in California so yeah we all need to calm down a little bit and and focus where we think the work is.

Unknown Speaker  33:20  
Yeah I think and you just and just so your listeners know you and I have never spoken but know

Pete Turner  33:26  
like hey this is Pete a Turner from lions rock productions we create podcasts around here and if you your brand or your company want to figure out how to do a podcast just talk to me I'll give you the advice on the right gear. The best plan is show you how to take a podcast that makes sense for you. That's sustainable. That's scalable and fun. Hit me up at Pete at breakdown show calm

james gagliano  33:48  
Let me help I want to hear about the planet is 4.5 billion with a be years old. First Man did not stand up right and straight across the You know, the planes until 200,000 years ago, civilization has only been around for what, 4000 5000, maybe 6000 years. Yeah, United States is 244 years old. That is a that's not a drop in the bucket. That's like, just that's a molecule in the bucket, when you look at the world in world history and how long European peoples and African peoples in Middle Eastern peoples, you know, the cradle of civilization, how long they've been around. And I think sometimes that people don't realize that this experiment, and we are living in an experiment, this experiment that we are that we are enjoying and prospering in and living in, it's fragile. And it you know, it's been here a microscopic amount of time when you put it into the context of the planet and civilization and mankind and other countries. And we need to cherish that because, you know, I mean, it's been said before, you know, in one generation It could be gone, we need to cherish it and fight for it. And I don't care whether your cubicle left you here to the right, your blue, your red, your D, your are. The bottom line is, this is ours. This is our thing, and we need to protect it, respect it and appreciate it. When I look at our last,

Pete Turner  35:19  
we'll say three of our last four presidential candidates. They they've all either been investigated for significant crimes. Why aren't we getting better people man like I'm sure you know, you growing up in you know, the army and the FBI. You must have met some incredible people that can handle the job. I think if he would ever take General Mattis has the capability, you know, like to this job is bigger than any one person, but if someone can handle it, it's someone like a Jim Mattis. Someone like I don't know. Yeah, there's a lot of people out there. Why aren't we able to encourage these folks and then pick them people who actually could have a chance at the job.

Unknown Speaker  36:00  
Didn't Winston Churchill famously say one time that you know, in a democracy, you deserve what you get? Because you choose and you elect what who your elected officials are the people that rule you if you weren't, I'm using air quotes right now, on a podcast, which will, which no one will see, but I'm describing what I'm doing. But you know, that that's, that's a democracy. I, you know, I look at it like, you know, every human being, I mean, Shakespeare had it, right. I mean, we're all walking around our own Greek tragedy, right. We're all fully hubris, we're all full of that fatal flaw that, you know, that character flaw that every one of his main protagonists had. And I think that's the case with politicians. To become a politician. You have to be a number of things. You know, you've got to be self absorbed, you've got to be an ego centric, you got to be, you know, all these things that we look at in polite society and say, Well, those aren't really things that we want. But the bottom line is when you're looking at a leader from a West Point perspective, From a you know, as I would view a leader, it comes down to the four C's, character, competence, charisma, and courage and courage doesn't just mean are you the guy that it's going to run through the breech or, you know, lay down on the barbed wire so that the rest of your team can run over it and, and go accomplish the mission, but the courage to stand up to people the courage to do what's right, the courage to protect the least amongst us the courage to say, hey, that's not right, even though it's going to hurt me politically. I'm not going to go for that. So, you know, you look at you talk about our recent future, you know, look, I go back to, you know, Reagan, who's my patron saint, there's a picture of me in my garage and I'm a I'm a Michael J. Fox, Alex Keaton, you know, from the TV show worshipper of Reagan, but even so, going forward, you know, Reagan with you know, the Iran Contra, every single president, you know, before him, there's only been 45 of men are 244 year history and after him They all have flaws. And I just think that when we're going to have human beings lead us, when you don't make a machine that we can make perfect, even if that exists on that side, they're gonna have flaws, whether you're looking at Reagan, you're looking at, you know, Bush 41, you're looking at Clinton, you're looking at Bush, 43, you're looking at Obama. And now certainly you're looking at Trump. These are flawed human beings, but they're human beings and to expect that you're going to get one that is going to be perfect. And that's going to get 100% favorability ratings and do everything right. Doesn't exist,

Pete Turner  38:35  
that doesn't exist. And we've also shown that our sense of a president in the time is often dramatically different than half History Museum. And Truman is a great example of that.

Unknown Speaker  38:45  
Well, you know, again, you and I didn't talk about the fact that we're going to talk about presidential history, but I'm happy to dive into this. You know, I say all the time. So. So Truman was a guy who became president when FDR died right toward the end of World War Two. And Truman was left making a huge decision that I don't know if a lot of people would have the stomach, the colonias whatever you want to call to make, whether or not to use atomic bombs and drop them on Imperial Japan in order to bring the war to an end. And he did that. And that is just a, an amazing, amazing thing that he did. He was the 33rd president. He was the guy that came up with the great line, the buck stops here, which means, you know, hey, don't pass the buck and ask somebody else take responsibilities with you. And here's something that really endeared him to me and as a guy that I don't think gets enough credit, Executive Order 9981 which desegregated the United States military in 1948. I think that doesn't get enough play. You know, when you look at you say, how many years later Was it 1964 that the Civil Rights Act passed the military which is considered a conservative battle. I was really progressive in that realm that in 1948, he said, guess what? They're not going to be Negro troops and white troops there are going to be troops. And man that that was huge at that time. 1948. So, hats off to Harry Truman. I don't think he gets the respect that he deserves, bro.

Pete Turner  40:18  
Yeah, well, right. So he also invented Israel, you know, gets the advice of everybody. And that has proven to be, I think, a good decision, but man an expensive one.

Unknown Speaker  40:32  
It has and you know, look, you know, I understand there's people that have obviously feelings as they should for, you know, Palestinians and the difficult position that they're in. But my God, Israel is literally and this is coming from a guy that has been all across the Middle East during my career. Israel is one place that is unequivocally a supporter, an ally and I say ally with a capital A of the United States. Yes, you can disagree. agree with their politics. Yes, you can disagree with this Prime Minister, that Prime Minister, yes, you can disagree with a whole host of things from the political side. But they are a true ally. And they deserve our, our support. And I hope that that never changes. I hope that no, no American administration ever changes that relationship.

Pete Turner  41:19  
Do you think we should recognize Palestine as a nation, since most of the rest of the world does?

Unknown Speaker  41:24  
Or you didn't tell me we were going here, but we're going here. Look, I'm a guy that believes in a two state solution. I do. And I know that people hear that and they're like, well, that's just nebulous and morphus. Tuesday, what does that truly mean? I mean, I believe that the Palestinians should self govern. I don't think the PLO is the answer. I think that they should self govern. I think they should be recognized as a state when they denounce terrorism and they no longer you know, promote the fact that you've got people that are sending their young kids to blow them. themselves up in markets in Israel so that they can have their 52 virgins and that their family can get a small stipend, you know, 1000 rubles or whatever the pay is drachmas or whatever it is over there, you know, to support them because they gave up a son or a daughter as a quote unquote martyr. Yeah, it's a difficult situation many presidents from both sides of the aisle and I tried to make that happen. And it just seems like it's one of those things that it's it's unfixable but I refuse to believe that I it's, it can be done, and it will be done. Hopefully, brother, it's in our lifetime.

Pete Turner  42:36  
Yeah, hopefully. I hope so. Yeah. And it's probably not fixable, but I think it requires management and attention. And, you know, apparently, we're the country that does that kind of thing for the rest of the world. For some reason, let's get past that stuff. Let's, if we were going to talk to young officer candidate Jim Galliano and say, Hey, one day Many years from now, you can get a PhD. What's that guy sick? Because Didn't you graduate in the bottom 50 of your class or bottom 10% of your class.

Unknown Speaker  43:10  
Boy, you did your research, didn't you? Well, I did. You're off, but you're up by just a little bit. It wasn't the bottom 10% it was the bottom 5% but but but I, I will say this, I grew up and I'm not, you know, look, if I would ever, you know, explain away my academic deficiencies as a young man, I could never blame my parents. My father graduated the top 5% of his West Point class in 1960. I grew up on the east side of Atlanta, and it wasn't it wasn't poor. It was lower middle class part of Atlanta, that had transitioned in the late 60s. And it was a place where African Americans that had moved out of the city limits themselves and out to the quote unquote, suburbs, even though we were 10 miles from downtown Atlanta, right. I grew up in a in a relatively pools full School District. A lot of kids didn't leave. They're achieving things. No excuses. And it's something when I talk to young men and young women today, I'm like, Look, you can't give an excuse to me. I mean, I to parents, and yes, not everybody is blessed with that. And they care. They broke a boot off of my ass to make sure I was doing homework and doing the right things. But it doesn't matter what school district you came from, or you don't have new books or this that any other, you can achieve things. Look, when I got to West Point, I'd love to be able to blame it on the school system. I came at it and it was a good school system. I mean, it still is even though a number of years ago, it went under state oversight, and it lost its accreditation. But the teachers they were doing the right things and working as hard as they could and the students there. I mean, I'm blessed to have gone there. But I just didn't work hard enough. When I got to West Point. I thought I was working hard and I wasn't so when I graduated, I really didn't start taking things seriously. All I wanted to do was get out in the army and I thought we're going to go to war with the Soviet Union and I wanted to be on the front lines of that. I think look at things a little differently now. And I think that happens once you have children. And once you're an adult, once you get married, and then all of a sudden you realize, you know what? There's, there's, there's more to do than you know, just I'm not going to mess with this homework stuff. So yeah, I would never I don't think if you go back and talk to people in my high school and you said, Hey, Jimmy Galliano is working on his doctorate. Now, what do you think about that? I think that once they pick the phone back up, after falling on the ground and laughing, they're, you know, what's off? Then they go, No, not that guy. But now, here I am. And it's just, it's why our country is great. It's like if you work hard, I truly believe this. There is even if there's impediments and obstacles, and it's not fair for everybody, we all don't start off on the same base. But if you're willing to work hard, there's nothing in this country you can achieve.

Pete Turner  45:45  
So you serve the government, in some capacity for over 30 years. You've got retirements, you make money by talking and writing and that kind of thing. Why on earth would you go back to school for five years to go get a PhD now, it's point in your life.

Unknown Speaker  46:02  
awesome question. And it's a simple answer. Having 33 years in the trenches like I did in serving and some people say is because I wasn't good at any one thing in the FBI. That's why I did so many different things. And they might be right about that. Yeah, but serving in so many different capacities as a tactical team leader, a member of HRT, a supervisor, a boss, a diplomat over in Mexico City, you know, undercover all those different things. Look, I've got the practitioner chops down well, so when the debate comes about policing and law enforcement matters, no one's gonna question me because in law enforcement, especially in the FBI, but in law enforcement, you may not know me but you know, a guy who knows a gal who knows me or a gal who knows a guy who knows a guy, because it's a close knit fraternity. So I'm comfortable that I've got the humbly speaking I've got the practitioner chops. I want the theoretical chops. Yeah. Because when you're debating things that are so polarizing today like policing methodologies, whether it's compstat, broken windows policing, theory, stop question and frisk, when you're debating those things. It's one thing to go, I've been in the trenches, I've done it. It's another thing to go, hey, I've studied it, and I've got these thoughts. When you put those two things together, it's a wonder twin powers activate. And that's where I want to get to. So is that a grind? Absolutely. Is it is my wife sometimes want to kick me out of the house? Because everybody's got to be quiet. And I've got this one corner of the house and I'm trying to do this. And do I sometimes think, why am I doing this at 55? Yeah, the answer is yes. But I know on the other end of this, it is going to pay dividends when I say paid dividends, not financially. I'm talking about being able to defend the profession that I love, by balancing theory with practitioner and doing it that way.

Pete Turner  47:54  
Yeah, you're right. There's the there's a magic with that when you're versed in the peer reviewed literature and you're able to talk not only about the cause, here's, here's what none of those folks that write those articles have. None of those guys have significant batch time. If they've got any, maybe they go do research somewhere hard for three months or six months or maybe even just a year. But when you've done it over and over again, when you've had that the time after time, the decisions and the complexity and you've lived in it, yeah, man, as a practitioner, you know, my buddy rich gave me a PhD in the field, you know, he's like, you, you, you know, this work out in the conflict zones, you know, gathering information and transmitting it back. He's like, nobody's better at this than you are like you are appear at the highest level. That is such a rare thing. But when I go to Stanford, to go interview somebody, I'm just some podcast guy, not a person that has any credentials. You know, the bona fides that come with that PhD and that ground truth, it's powerful.

Unknown Speaker  48:56  
Brother, I got to tell you, man, when you talk about and I can say this because I'm in academia now. I mean, I teach undergraduates I have a Master's year, so out for my doctorate. But when you want to talk about a cloistered, closed in nose in the air type of society, you are talking about academia. It is all about titles. It's all about where you've been published, what peer reviewed articles in journals you've been published in. You are 100%, right? Look, I'm, as you can tell, and as your listeners can probably tell, if you're listening to me for two seconds, I'm a knuckle dragger. I'm not going to pretend ever that I'm some wickedly smart guy, getting a doctorate getting a PhD. Here's the ticket to it. It's the same ticket to anything else. You can't quit. It has nothing to do with me being smarter. I've I've talked to PhDs that are way smarter than I am. And I've talked to PhDs that I don't know how to graduate from high school. It's not about being smarter than people. It's about I'm going to finish Finish this. And then once you're done, you got something nobody can take away from you. And like I said, for me, especially now being a member of the board of directors of the law enforcement Legal Defense Fund, whose goal and mission is to defend the profession and defend cops that are involved in officer involved shootings, the righteous cops, the Honorable ones, we defend them and help them out financially. I want to be in a position where I can talk about from an academic perspective, and you can't do that until you have a doctor behind your name.

Pete Turner  50:28  
Yeah, let's talk a little bit about your work in that with the fun and yeah, I understand the PhD thing. It's it's something that calls to me. But I haven't been able to make sense of how to get it done in a way that just didn't ruin my life for the next five years, you know,

Unknown Speaker  50:43  
but I look and don't look to me to tell you wouldn't ruin your life for the next five years, because it will. But all I'm saying is I've talked to people that have gotten to the other side of it, and they say it's worth it. And that's what I'm clinging to like grim death. Yeah,

Pete Turner  50:57  
yeah. Well, you're like my big brother with this thing. So I'm may not follow your lead, but I've definitely I always have to consider just because the kind of work that we've done I mean, I've got 1000 combat missions outside the wire, you know, but when I speak, no one knows me because all my friends were warlords, you know, my job, you know, let's get to the LDF and talk about that a little bit because as a guy that's been in court got in trouble for something dumb, it didn't even matter. Part of the problem for me was I was I was poor. I didn't have any money. And so the state has all the money at once. And as a veteran, the county was gonna deny me my my veteran diversion thing. And if I had a public defender, but she was so overwhelmed, she never really could even get him to show up to my last court date. You know, yeah, like my defender became the person sitting in the chair like, oh, okay, I'll handle it today. That is no way to be represented. And my mind was over a stupid thing and apart that, you know, didn't even count ultimately, you're talking about cops, making a call. on the line in the most challenging times, it's it's enormously difficult and it can quickly become political and get out of the hands and that cop can be screwed just because, you know, they made a call that anybody else wouldn't have made it. But there was a probably was not a good decision to make in that moment, a lot of those times.

Unknown Speaker  52:20  
So, so So let's look at the law enforcement profession writ large. And I think that there are just under a million sworn law enforcement officers in this country and I think that the people that are active duty law enforcement make up less than half a percent like point oh 4% of our wonderful country. I mean, these are special people that are called to this now. The purpose of the law enforcement Legal Defense Fund, the Le LDF is partly educational and partly benevolent, meaning we want to help the public understand what it takes to be a police officer and you know, Everybody wants to watch the video afterwards from the officers body cam and say, well in that situation, I would have done this and you're like, but wait a minute, we just slowed it down to you know, one 16th of the speed. And you're doing this after the fact when you know the outcome, that police officer was doing this in a low light condition with no he's he's operating in a vacuum and he police officers respond to a domestic shooting or pull over a car on the side of Route 66 for a broken taillight. When they're walking up on that car, they're in an information vacuum and so reaction and having to respond to somebody being the aggressor and you know, from the military action beats reaction every single time. So, our job in the LDS army, so another

Pete Turner  53:46  
factor into that too, because it's important. Every time you go out for a shift, you're briefed, you've been constantly briefed on Watch out for the guy in the white fan. Watch out for that guy in the blue car. There's a guy running around around town raping girls. He sometimes you know, and so you're you come up that might, you might be describing a car that could be the car that could be the guy that's doing all of this. And so now you go from a regular traffic stop to extremely tense one. You know, that's I wanted to throw that in because you see the video, but you don't hear the briefing before.

Unknown Speaker  54:20  
Right. And and I think that's that's the case is that, you know, we look at these things and again, we look at him with 2020 hindsight. Yeah. And it's so unfair. You know, I think it was 1989, the Supreme Court made a decision in a case called Graham versus Connor. And what the case said is, we have to we have to judge officers when it comes to use of force, right, we have to judge them on the objective reasonableness standard, which means what should an experienced police officer have done in that circumstance? Was that the right thing to do to pull their weapon was that the right thing to use a taser? Was that the right thing to strike somebody with an aspect time was that the right thing to take? Life which people think for cops is just like oh you know, got it this morning I took a life. It's a huge life not life changing, it is a life altering type of of construct of being. So, what the what the organization the LDF tries to do, it's been around since 1994. So just celebrated 25 years recently, I've been existence is looking at particular cases where police officers are charged with with a crime, whether they're charged with manslaughter, they're charged with brutality, or they're charged with with something that is unfair. And we do this on a case by case basis. So you know, look, let's understand you understand this in the military. I understand it from law enforcement. There are bad apples out there. And there are people that should never wear the badge. And their conduct shouldn't be papered over and when it's when it comes to light, we should condemn them and if it's right, they should be fired. And if it's criminal, they should they should face prosecution, but the vast majority of good cops out there that you pointed out, you alluded to this at the top of this little segment, that during these trying times right now, under this different microscope, this post Ferguson post 2014 microscope, you know, these officers need support and that support can be financial support can be social media or public affairs wise. And that's what we're looking to do.

Pete Turner  56:23  
Yeah, yeah. And I will say, for the for the combat experience cops out there, you know, I have a line, if you cross that line, I have to act decisively in and you know, I always say like, the scale goes from one to 10. But when I respond, I respond that a 36 like it's over. It's the size of, if you put your hands in my cart to come after my gun, you're well inside my line. And and now you intend to harm me and the people around there, and I'm not going to be the guy dragged off the TV getting their neck cut, I'm just not going to do it. And so you have to understand the mindset of folks that have been in these kind of situations. They've In life and death situations, a lot a lot of folks have who are law enforcement. And you develop these things and like, this is inside the zone. And as a guy who's been an operator on the ground, they get to have that. They get to have that self preservation. That's why when I get pulled over, I want that I want that officer to know, hey, I'm not a problem. You're gonna go home tonight after this call. I, you know, that's the first thing I want to do is we'll figure everything else out after it's all minor because I'm not doing anything wrong here. Maybe I'm going to get a ticket. Maybe I'm not but you're going to go home, you know?

Unknown Speaker  57:32  
Yep. Yeah, I think that's important. I think you kind of nailed it there because there are a lot of folks that are they're coming back. They're transitioning out of the military, transitioning out of you know, Special Operations and guys that have done amazing things overseas. important consideration, you know, law enforcement is needs those skills. And, and, and obviously that warrior ethos that comes from people that have served our country and been in harm's way, especially in a piece in In a military where there's no conscription, so you're doing it by volunteering to do it, which says a lot about people. Now, the other thing is on the law enforcement side, you know, when we're over in the sandbox when you're over in a combat zone, you don't have to account for every round. Yeah, can't discriminate. Yes, you can't shoot civilians. Yes, you can be tried for war crimes. But inside these United States, United States, you have to account for every single round. And you know, it's important use of force continuum. It's like, you can only go one level over what the bad guy does. So if the bad guy does something that's not a threat to your life, we can immediately go to taking life we've got to go do them in a southern in a different way. Yeah, that makes it really complicated. That's why law enforcement, the judgment, discernment is such a tough job and people think anybody can do it, but really, they're a special breed of folks are still out there in the frontlines doing it now.

Pete Turner  58:56  
Hey, I want to give you a chance to plug your stuff. Let everybody know where they can find your how they Take your classes St. John's.

Unknown Speaker  59:02  
Well, I take I took a little break this semester. So I didn't teach. But normally at St. John's I teach undergraduates in American military history between 1917 and 2003, which is essentially war one to the war in Iraq. I teach organizational leadership, I teach a number of different Homeland Security and criminal justice courses. So I'm not teaching this semester, hoping to start back up in the fall again, but anybody that's looking to go to St. John's would love to have you in class. And then really beyond that. I just like doing this, whether it's you referred to some of my columns I write for CNN opinion, and I write for the Washington Examiner primarily, but I also give columns to other places, but those are the two main places and then I'm on social media like everybody else, you can follow me at James A Galliano ga g Li n o. You can find me on Instagram under the same you can find me on Facebook, I have a public page. I love to communicate with people as long as folks are respectful as long as folks aren't trolls or bots, I'll respond back to people and I love to engage in civil discourse. You know, as I say to people all the time that follow me on Twitter, you're not going to agree with everything, every one of my takes, but you know that there'll be offered. Honestly, that's the way that I feel I'm not trying to be. I'm not trying to play an angle or Well, he worked for CNN. So he says this, or Well, he's former military since that. No, I give it to you unvarnished. They're my views exclusively. As long as people are civil in their dissent. I love to hear the opposing side of it.

Pete Turner  1:00:30  
I love it. Hey, man, thanks for coming on. And yeah, he definitely I can vouch for that. Everything I saw about you was was exactly what you just said. So thanks for coming on the show. Hope to have you back on as soon as we have something else to talk about, which is probably going to be tomorrow, but just thanks again. Man. I really appreciate you I

james gagliano  1:00:47  
look forward to it. And I appreciate what you're doing too. Because this is the kind of stuff that I love to listen to when I'm on a long commute. Smart conversations between civil people we don't agree on everything but the same token just trying to bring issues to the fore and Have an adult discussion about thanks for having me on.