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Spy vs Spy, Jeff Felmet Shares His Saudi Field Report - Today we're featuring Jeff Felmet a firefighter and a spy. Jeff and Pete A Turner served in the US Army together as spies during the mid 90's in Germany. They both deployed to Bosnia, and Jeff did a tour in pre-9/11 Saudi Arabia.
Firefighters and EMs check out Jeff's training company. What makes these #spyvsspy episodes so unique is the authentic conversation between two actual field operators. Like any job, even the exciting ones, there are peaks and valleys--good bosses and bad bosses. This is what makes this conversation so fascinating. Beyond two great friends catching up, Jeff and Pete have a chat that you just can't hear anywhere else. How does one spy? How does a Steelers fan who likes beer go to Saudi Arabia and develop a network of information-laden |
sources? We're about to learn how...
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#espionage, #spyvsspy #germany #bosnia #serbia #croatia #saudiarabia #aschauffanberg #165thMIBN #Darmstadt #counterintelligence #intelligence
Haiku
Two old friends unite
Germany to Bosnia
It’s Spy vs Spy
Similar episodes:
Carl Kieninger
Bryan Fuller
Jack Barsky
Donate to Save The Brave
#espionage, #spyvsspy #germany #bosnia #serbia #croatia #saudiarabia #aschauffanberg #165thMIBN #Darmstadt #counterintelligence #intelligence
Haiku
Two old friends unite
Germany to Bosnia
It’s Spy vs Spy
Similar episodes:
Carl Kieninger
Bryan Fuller
Jack Barsky
Transcription
Pete Turner 0:00
Hey everybody this is Pete a Turner from lions rock productions the break it down the show. I'm filling in today for john on the intro because I've known with today's guest for over 25 years. He's a longtime friend of mine, someone I knew back in my days in the army in Germany and the mighty mighty 160 fifth MI battalion. Now you've heard a few shows where I've had other peers from that time frame on and what I love about this is Bryan fuller was one of those guests and also Carl Keininger and I'm going to continue to show you guys these people.
Hey everybody this is Pete a Turner from lions rock productions the break it down the show. I'm filling in today for john on the intro because I've known with today's guest for over 25 years. He's a longtime friend of mine, someone I knew back in my days in the army in Germany and the mighty mighty 160 fifth MI battalion. Now you've heard a few shows where I've had other peers from that time frame on and what I love about this is Bryan fuller was one of those guests and also Carl Keininger and I'm going to continue to show you guys these people.
Pete Turner 0:00
Hey everybody this is Pete a Turner from lions rock productions the break it down the show. I'm filling in today for john on the intro because I've known with today's guest for over 25 years. He's a longtime friend of mine, someone I knew back in my days in the army in Germany and the mighty mighty 160 fifth MI battalion. Now you've heard a few shows where I've had other peers from that time frame on and what I love about this is Bryan fuller was one of those guests and also Carl Keininger and I'm going to continue to show you guys these people. But in fact, we really were a counterintelligence agents, we really, we're spies our day to day job involved around some kind of collection or prevention of collection against us. The reality is actually a lot more interesting, you know how we went about our training when we felt confident about our ability to collect actually getting a chance to collect. That's what I think makes the Spy vs. spies episodes truly unique, and unattainable anywhere else. I'm trying to give all of us the ability to one sit in on a conversation that you're like, man, I'd love to meet this guy. And that's, that's totally what happens here. Because Jeff is such a likeable guy. He's from Georgia, and I'm positive. If any of you met him, you would feel like oh, that's my friend, we have a good time. But also, just to illustrate really what is a spy, I mean, all we really get to know is like the NSA and the CIA. We don't know anything about those guys. And then also what we see in movies, which is isn't really reality. Here's the reality. This is, this episode really gives you an idea of what it takes to become someone who can go into an area unknown, unfamiliar, not ethnically from that area, and start to pull information in. So I really hope you guys enjoy film it as much as I do. Jeff is a great friend of mine, if you get a chance, take a look at the picture that accompanies this episode, because one, it's Jeff and I back in my back in the 90s, and our playboy days, but also a gorgeous lady who I have no idea where she is now what her name was. But we met her in Denmark from moment grabbed a picture and just this was what was great about Germany in the 90s, we got a chance to go out and travel. And you're to see and Jeff and I probably had just one of the highest points in our friendship, having a great time on the road. And just doing what Americans do find people to fall in love with. I love all you guys is I do this, all of this out of love to tell stories, whether you live in Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, North America, always different continents, people listen to the breakdown show and I from my heart. I really truly thank you feel encouraged to reach out to me on twitter at Pete a Turner or Facebook or Instagram. We want to hear from you. We want to talk to you guys. And if you would do me this favor, subscribe, rate review, wherever you listen to the show, it would really be helpful to us, it really helps others to discover the show if you like it, share it. That's how you help that right there is a big, big help. And then one more thing I want to make sure we mentioned is that we've officially partnered with Scott Hughes's charity, save the brave. These guys are doing legit work. These are my people I talked to them. I know. They take service members who have PTSD, and they get them out of their environment, surround them with fellowship, give them a great day. And they're really look, all of the money goes towards this cause I think maybe 3% of the money goes towards administration. Everybody works for free. And I don't charge them for this. I do this out of the goodness of what we have to do here with our service charter. So again, thanks to everybody. Thanks to Jeff. You guys are really going to enjoy this chat. And now Jeff helmet, millions rock productions.
Jay Mohr 3:39
This is Jay Mohr
Unknown Speaker 3:39
This is Jordan Harbinger
Unknown Speaker 3:41
Texture from the naked Sebastian youngsters, Rick Morocco,
stewart copeland 3:44
This is Stewart Copeland
Skunk Baxter 3:47
This is Skunk Baxter,
Unknown Speaker 3:48
Gabby Reese, Rob belly, this is Johnny Andre, and
Pete Turner 3:51
this is Pete a Turner.
Jeff Felmet 3:54
Hey, this is Jeff Felmet and you're listening to the break it down show.
Niko Leon Guerrero 4:00
And now the breakdown show with john Leon Guerrero and Pete a Turner.
Pete Turner 4:07
Yes, yes, yes. Jeff is a friend of mine from Gosh, Jeff 25 years ago now And we actually first met in a IT you were a class or two ahead of me, I remember you being there. But you know how it is when you're in school, you don't really it's like the the older class people don't really associate with the younger class folks much. But we ended up in the same unit, oddly enough, is officially a Spy vs. Spy show. Because you've done a lot of that work. And obviously, so by so we were assigned together in Germany, and I just wanted to take a chance to check in with you because you're one of my favorite people from that era of my life, and still one of my favorite people. But it was always great, because you were just you were down, you're ready to have fun, you're ready to work and all those things. And I just I love the heck out of you. And thanks for coming on the show, man.
Jeff Felmet 4:56
No problem. Thanks for having me.
Pete Turner 4:57
Let's talk a little bit about those days in June, you were in Heidelberg, he would often come up to us to hang out, we would often come down to you. But what are your some of your memories from that time of our life?
Jeff Felmet 5:10
Oh, geez, I just, I remember how cool it was living over in a foreign country being young. I turned 21 when I was over there, and just that how neat it was just to be able to, you know, the way the country was just being able to ride trains everywhere and going out and just experiencing a different culture. It was, it was a good time,
Pete Turner 5:34
when you look at the experience that we had, specifically in terms of let's talk about training, you know, go into a shop. Because what a lot of folks don't realize is like when I say I'm a spy, they're like, they don't understand it. They understand it more than when I say I'm a counterintelligence agent, though, and this is what I've learned, right? So if I say, Oh, I was a counter intelligence agent, a badge to credential federal agent, they like I don't know what that means. But if I say I was a spy, they at least have a response to not always a positive ones. Like what are you talking about? Why would you say that? That kind of thing. So let's talk a little bit about what it meant to be a spy for us in our area. What kind of things did you do on a day to day basis when you were working? Because you worked out in the field office, which is pretty sweet gig?
Jeff Felmet 6:14
Yeah. So so my day to day basis when we were when we were in Germany was to do security clearance investiga tions, basically. So we took on the arm who wasn't we were working for Defense Intelligence Service, I guess we're doing there. And we're just basically updating soldiers security clearances, but yeah, that we are always training for the the idea of the deployment, which we got to do. Now to Bosnia, but mostly, it was pretty, it was definitely, you know, two different realms that we're in. I mean, I like our job was very spread out. Lots of different things.
Pete Turner 7:01
Yeah, it's hard because you really had a nine to five job doing these clearances and and so the audience understands Jeff's job was to wear a suit, which is not normal for a 21 year old army kid, go out and engage with people in his region, which was Heidelberg and fucking lucky you and have conversations with you know, the person themselves who had the clearance, but also the people around them. And there's a lot of dead ends that you have to go chase. Because you think about this, the Army's always moving people around. So a guy that he worked with two years that the person you're looking into, worked with two years ago is gone. But you have to do your due diligence to go find that person up. They're not here they moved on they've, they've been reassigned to somewhere else. Hey, this is Pete real quick, I just want to let you guys know, we are proud to announce our official support of save the brave, a certified nonprofit 501 c three, with a charter of helping veterans with post traumatic stress. Here's how you can help go to save the brave. com, click on the link on the website. And my recommendation is this subscribe, give them 20 bucks a month, you've got subscriptions you can turn off right now that you're not using that are $20 a month, swap that out get involved. Let's help these folks out. They've been reassigned to somewhere else. So you spend a lot of time it seemed to me, Jeff, tell me if I'm wrong. You spent a lot of time not interviewing people and more just trying to find people to interview.
Jeff Felmet 8:26
Yeah, I think part of the biggest thing was we would develop references. So I mean, you know, the guy that you put down on your paperwork as being a reference was not the guy we want to talk to you. We want to talk to you, the other people that that guy knew that knew you so. So yeah, we would do a lot of that just going around. I mean, it would really depend on what level we were at. Sometimes we went out and talk to people that other investigators in other parts of the country figured out that we need to go talk to you and they would task us with specific individuals in this top two, or we would, you know, go to the records, checks and just check the MP station reshare that never got arrested while they were there or whatever. It was just a lot of it meant it was mundane stuff. Like the part I enjoyed the most was getting to go talk to generals and having them call me sir. When I walked in their office, you know, they obviously knew who I was.
Pete Turner 9:20
Yeah. And that work was, like you said it was mixed with this whole, like, get ready to go to war with there was no war, but we didn't know what else to do. So we had to maintain our tactical proficiency in tactical things, while still remaining style still remaining proficient in the strategic, you know, investigation side of things. Did you feel like you? Did you ever really? Look, we were young agents back then. Did you feel like you ever really got developed in anything because we had so much to cover?
Jeff Felmet 9:53
You know what I don't I honestly I, I felt like I was just new enough to be dating dress and a lot of things. You know, I mean, I would go one day, I'm out checking the oil and tires in my Humvee all day. And the next day, I'm putting on a suit and doing interviews and the next day, we're practicing setting up camouflage netting, and then then we go to the field and do surveillance training. And it says so much different stuff.
Pete Turner 10:21
Yeah, let's talk about I wonder, I now look fondly upon that time, I did not look forward to it. When we, when we were doing it, because there was so much bullshit around going, you know, you had to maintain a stove. And, you know, and it was like everybody else got to do planning things. And then knuckleheads like us had to go out and like you said, one day it'd be like fuller and I in a container somewhere scrubbing with steel brushes scrubbing down stone so they wouldn't be rusty. And and then you're like, this whole the whole manifold here is broken. And as long as it looks good, all just oiled up and Rusty, that's all Mike but it's not gonna work. doesn't have the right parts. It doesn't matter as long as it looks good. So we we come back covered in oil and you like how kind of a spy Am I you know, like, those are the crazy days when, when you have to change the tires and all those things. I remember one time, probably the hardest thing I ever did in the army, and I'm not exaggerating, was change a Humvee tire with a hand jack, and and no, like, no. No real wrench, I had this wrench that they brought with the Humvee that was like a 10 fold, like extended extended, extended extended out, Evan, you would wrench on the on the nut obvious, so impossible. Like if you're picturing the standard tire changing, like, you know, x wrench or T wrench, whatever you call those things. Not that the shiniest version of that possible. And it took me hours in Bosnia to change one damn time. Because I couldn't, I couldn't just drive over to the motor pool where they actually had tools, I had to use the hand tools. That was the stupidest thing ever.
Jeff Felmet 12:10
Well, I never had to do that. Thank God, you didn't have to break a tire apart and put a new tire on or did you on a rim did you have to do that or just take one tire off and put another time I
Pete Turner 12:19
taking that one tire off and putting it back on was a significant challenge with the tools I was given. It was giving something less than a socket wrench to do it. And I'm not even joking. Like that was the the, if I could, I have to find a picture of that stupid tool. It literally was like, it was like, let's picture a foot long piece of metal that was segmented. So you could make it three feet long. So it would like get longer and longer. And that thing you would go to twist and put torque on it. And the whole wrench, I was worried that I was going to break the wrench. You know, and now I'm trying to break I don't know, 120 pounds of torque on this thing. And it's freezing fucking cold outside, you know, we get trained all the time. Don't touch metal, don't touch metal. And then I have all this metal that I'm touching constantly by myself. By the way, nobody else out there. Just freezing my ass off changing the fucking tire.
Jeff Felmet 13:16
And I'm lucky I didn't have to do that. I just had to clean a lot of shit buckets from the latrine.
Pete Turner 13:24
But you did get to do some of the spy work now maybe so in Boston, did you get to do much? Or were you guys not properly employed? Well,
Jeff Felmet 13:32
you know, I don't know how it was where you're at. But basically, we we were in the town of Madonna. And we went back and forth across into Serbia pretty much every day. But they kept us with a group. So we would go out with civil affairs and psychological ops. And then us so don't know. I mean, we were definitely not covert in our actions. Like, they knew exactly who we were and what we were doing. And we never use the word intelligence and we never use the word. Spy we always use like security. But we went out and talk I don't I don't know how much information there is to gather when you're walking when you're driving into town with seven Humvees and guys sitting on top of that, you know, the scouts and their turrets and, and we're all loaded up, you know. And I know it took a lot of pictures with kids next to my Humvee and got a lot of candy and bubble gum with little stickers inside. Yeah, but uh, I don't know, I don't know how much we actually gathered out there. But it was. It was interesting. What was interesting about it. Oh, they're just, you know, one thing I always found others that we considered the Serbians, the bad guys seem pretty nice to me, except for the, obviously their war criminal that they had. But they, but the people were nice. At least that's what I realized, or thought the most about out there. But I don't know, it's just, you know, there's just the whole the way, the way the system works, you know, every little piece of information that we would gather we we might find out that, you know, somebody was talking bad about our camp that was 20 miles away, but we'd write it down and come back and write a report about it. And then eventually, that goes all the way up and somebody's reading it. And they put two and two together and figure something out. You know, it I never really thought we learned anything, but maybe we did. Who knows? Yeah. And we're at the very, we're at the very bottom of that totem pole.
Pete Turner 15:50
Yeah, that's fair. I mean, being at the bottom of the totem pole, or, or you could say, the tip of the spear, depending on how you want to look at it, you know?
Jeff Felmet 15:57
Sure. If you want to make it sound cool. Yeah,
Pete Turner 15:59
yeah. But I mean, No, for real, though you are going outside, you are going into Serbia. And we definitely taken sides. And the Serbs for sure had a reason to be pretty pissed off at us. And and you can remember at the time, this is largely for the audience, because I know you remember, we didn't know that this piece was kind of hope. You know, we weren't convinced that hadn't helped previously. So we did what at least in terms of where we were Jeff, we were expecting someone to be running guns and weapons and planning for another attack. And then we were going to get overrun in the process. You know, that would that was sort of what we were briefed on. And also, let's not forget, every time they talked about how many minds were in the country, that you know, they would grow exponentially. Do you remember that?
Jeff Felmet 16:44
Oh, man, I got pictures of me standing in the snow with woods behind me with the scientists a mine on it. Yeah, just standing there, knowing that there were land mines. I remember one of the talking about mines, remember, and the big big lesson was if you didn't drop it, don't pick it up. Right? That was always the don't if you didn't drop it, don't pick it up. Because while your fingers off, you know, put a coke can on the ground and it'll blow your fingers off. And that'll put you out of commission. I remember one day. So we're we're over there with 412 infantry, mechanized infantry, and these guys, they never got to leave. So you know, I do consider myself lucky that I got there at least go out. And you know, every day was a little bit different day. These guys were over there for a year never got to leave their compound. Wow. And, and they were just going nuts. And I remember one day, we were coming back from our from our mission in the sergeant major had his guys outside of camp, walking down the road, picking up trash on the track. And we're just like going nuts. Like, what the fuck are you doing? We're not supposed to pick up trash. You know, what are you doing? And he's all these guys are? This is a disgrace, and blah, blah, blah, it's like, idiot, you're going to get somebody killed. So yeah, it's just, it definitely was a weird, you know, you know, going through the towns and and just seeing the destruction and how much I mean, everything was just kind of weird. And then you know, you talked a little bit earlier about going out shopping Berg and grass and beer and stuff. And, you know, I remember going through the training in the box and not knowing that we were getting ready to go to Bosnia in six months, and then how much that shit really look like, Bosnia. Now the towns look like it have a street signs look like it? And it's like, we have no clue. You know, I didn't, I didn't know what we are getting ready to go there. And it's just weird how, you know how, probably how much in the future they had been planning for that stuff.
Pete Turner 18:43
You know, it's funny. Where we, when we trade, I want to talk about a shot from Bergen a minute, but when when we trained in a shop, and it was nothing like what I had, because we didn't really live in a built up area. We were out in the countryside, talking to farmers and stuff. And so in my world, it doesn't even occur to me. But there are city people and that any of us worked in any kind of a built up area that looked like Europe. You know, like that's just when you said that it just dawned on me that Oh, yeah, that's right. That's it. Even though I went to a bunch of places, we went to Syria a vo and did some work. We got kind of farmed around a little bit. So I did get to work in those areas. But my memory is all rural farm. donkeys, you know, that kind of thing. I want to ask you a little bit more about working out, you know, near Serbia, it's kind of neat to that, you know, like teams like yours like ours, we got to cross international borders to go do our work. And that's pretty rare to be able to do that. When I mean, how many people got to go to Serbia in the late 90s? You know, and walk around and check things out. That's, that's cool.
Unknown Speaker 19:47
Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff Felmet 19:50
Yeah, it was, uh, yeah, I certainly will go through the the loss zone, a separation, we dragged you there. And that was the only reason that I'm at your first armor, this went down with us. And for the a one Abrams tanks of all they could do is sit, sit at checkpoints, you know, this couldn't even drive anywhere in that country. Because all the hill and stuff that they would just, they put them at a checkpoint, I don't think they move for, for a year. You're sat there and pointed what down one way and putting down the other. It was a little windy roads and stuff. And I just, you know, every day we did it, I mean, obviously it got kind of routine, but just thinking, Man, we're going to get ambushed out here, you know, they would, you know, I drove zombies. So I was I had to be taught you know, don't ever stop and give yourself room to drive forward and drive through the drive through the block or whatever happened, you know, so it's kind of definitely fresh, little frustrating for sometimes, and then Maureen and others, but then there was definitely some time that was kind of any.
Pete Turner 20:53
So going back to the trash thing I recall, we were in Hungary, and it was myself. And we had this Lieutenant who she wasn't awesome. Let's just say that. And we were by the edge of the road, you know, getting ready to drive into getting ready to drive into Bosnia. And it was like the last thing we did like we were literally the next time we shut the door. We were not getting out of the car until we were there. And she was taking all of her Ricky and chewy wrappers, you know, her pokey bait all of her snacks and candy wrappers and throwing them over her shoulder into an irrigation ditch on the side of the road and hungry and first turn Oh, and saw this and lost his mind. And I'm laughing because there's a field with the cow next to us. That's all turned over, clearly doesn't have mines in it. Because we're not in Bosnia, we are in hungry. And I know that he's not going to lead the way by going into that field and grabbing all her crap and not and he can't tell her to do it because she's the lieutenant. So this lady had just littered like the shiniest American possible. And he was just losing his mind because he was in this spot where he couldn't. He couldn't fix anything. Like he could have told me get in there and fucking get that shit out. But then I would have said, I didn't drop it. I'm not supposed to pick it up. There's mines everywhere I can he knew that she was coming. And so he was just in a rage. And he yells better as much as he could, but then got out of it. But that was some of like the the nonsense, right?
Jeff Felmet 22:25
Yeah. Did you guys go down first? Were you in the first group like in the January 6, or whatever? What did you guys go
Pete Turner 22:31
with the main bar that went down, I didn't take the train. I went down on the main body that went you know, down, we took a bus. And then we got in our vehicles once we got to where the train was because so for the audience,
Jeff Felmet 22:44
I took the frickin train. It took me six days, five days to get from Frankfurt, Germany or wherever we got on around Frankfurt to it. Two days are hungry, right? And then, and then we got the hungry, we stay there for couple days. And then we got in our gunner convoys and we drove off and we got to the border of on the Sava to that floating bridge. Yeah, we literally stayed there for three days, yes, in our Humvees. Because every time we were getting ready to go across the bridge, a dead cow would come down or something and they'd have to break it apart and put it back together. And then I remember when we finally got across, this was like the longest trip ever, so bad because I remember, I remember when I left I got on a bus. And I was back in Frankfurt in like eight hours, right? But it took me like seven days to get there. But I remember driving across in my first when we first went into Bosnia, and it was NFL playoffs on the Pittsburgh Steeler fan. They're playing like the Indianapolis Colts in the playoffs and listening to Armed Forces Radio. And I'm doing we had to get out and patrol around the vehicles and we just pulled over we want to cross the river. And we just pulled over because it was dark. And they didn't want Dr. We didn't really know where we were going. So we were all just pulled over in tomboy. And we were supposed to like basically walk around patrol around vehicles. So I'm listening on my Walkman listen to the football game. And I remember cars just driving and every time those cars would come up to this literally thought we were going to get attacked, right? We had no clue It was not like you guys are gonna run us over. They're gonna float. So I mean, once again, you got a 20 year old guy has no clue. And who's been promised and
Pete Turner 24:27
a lot of us were going to die. You remember, like when we got Yeah, most of you aren't going to come home, like speech. And I believe you know, I believe it. There's 1500 bazillion minds here. And, man, that whole time is crazy. Also, remember, we're getting ready to go down. I don't know if you were in this part of the trip or this when you're on the train. But one of the vehicles could only go 15 miles an hour for a point. And so we had the drive that fast. Like we never got out of
Jeff Felmet 25:00
No, I mean, like said we didn't seem to drive anywhere, any contrast. And then, and I still remember we finally rolled up where our camp was. It was like in the middle is a it was a farm field, like this farmer's field that they picked up. And there was nothing there. So we got there, there was nothing there was no nothing for us. And also, you know, our engineer guys are setting up concertina wire around. I just remember looking around, and there's hills everywhere. And I'm like we're in the middle of a bowl. Like we're in the bottom, like there's high points all around us. What the hell are we doing here? Like I'm an intelligence guy, not a not a planner. But we're in the wrong place in a mud. Oh my god, I got I got started pulling guard duty in the mud. So. So this farm field was just cut, you know, the soil was just meant to be nice, fertile soil, and we're running Humvees over it and everything. So it's just killing like the ground. And it was frozen when we got there. And as it started with Bob, they would just bring in bulldozers, and they would push the mud up to the side and make big berms around the edges of the camp. And I'm pulling guard duty, middle of the night, and we're walking and we're walking on top of these frozen berms. And I fell in to the frozen berm like the mud, and I went chest deep. So I'm in my Mickey Mouse, cold weather boots. And I'm holding my am 16 of above my head and I'm sitting there, nibble deep in his mud. And my partner's down on the bottom of the berm like what the fuck happened. I like I'm stuck. I didn't think I was going to get out Peter. I almost lost the boot. And I finally get out. I pull myself out of this thing. And I'm covered from head to toe and mud. They want to tell anybody to let me want to be embarrassed. So I go back and I'm trying to scam by the the stove and dry off. It was awful. Yeah, that was the scariest moment for me. hyperthermia? Well, you
Pete Turner 26:57
didn't want to get in trouble. Because you know, we got in trouble for dumbest things. It wasn't like actually anything was just for being idiots. Let's talk about actual do an actual spy stuff in a shop and birthday. Because that was always investing time, I'm going to set the stage for the audience. So we would go camping. And there's army units that go like to feel problems, they really dig in and they work on their combat skills, we really didn't have time to do that. And it wasn't really our main job. So we would drive there, we would set up our tents. And that's already a big enough operation. But you know, it just pretty quickly got everything set up. And then every individual office like Jeff would have heard his little sub team and they would have their own little small tent and you needed that you needed a tent and the stove because it was cold there. And then of course, the lowest ranking guys would always have to, you know, fire up the stove. So everybody else could be warm, and you know, whatever that stuff. And then we would have relaxed grooming standards when we were in town, meaning we could have a beard, but you couldn't have a beard in the tactical invite. So really, that was a dumb? I don't know, I don't know if you remember that. It was like you didn't have to shave in town. But you had to be clean shaven when you're on the camp. And those two things happened in the same day all the time. But we just camped outside in a forest in a shopping Burg. And then we just drove into town in like buses, like eight of us would pile out of a bus. Do you recall this stuff?
Jeff Felmet 28:23
Yea h, I mean, it was just Yeah, and we and we kind of stank because we've been out and you know, camping I remember one point, we got to go to like a gym somewhere and take a shower. I remember that. Yeah, I was just yeah. And, and we would, we basically would go into town and practice following people. And I joke around with people all the time, when I see people, you know, talking on their headsets or their you know, their Bluetooth Mike's and stuff. I say, we used to make such a big deal about people not noticing that we are talking to ourselves or listening to something or talking in microphones. And nowadays, I could put a beats headset on and walk around the street and talk to myself all day long. And no one would think twice about it. But it was just the idea that we was so busy. Yeah. secretive about that stuff.
Pete Turner 29:13
Yeah. And they did the thing we would then move on. So we didn't just do surveillance, we would do source meets. And so sure, because of who I wasn't where I was, I normally played some kind of role. And you guys but all meet with me, which was for me, it turned out great training. Because you know, it'd be like, yeah, Chief Underwood, or, you know, Sergeant, so and so these guys that actually had experience with show up and they would, you know, work me as a source. And now we get to see how they did it. It was awesome.
Jeff Felmet 29:40
Yeah, I think I remember meeting you at a bar one time or something. That sounds right. Coffee Shop.
Pete Turner 29:45
Oh, for sure. A coffee? Coffee? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we couldn't safely drink in front of them. And and you didn't know when someone would show up. But for sure. That's some of the things that we did. And so I would be like the mayor of a shop and brick and Jeff would show up and talk to me. Talk to me about that, Jeff, because you're trying to conduct spy operations in you know, in Germany. And granted, it's just practice, but they don't know that. Hey, this is Pete a Turner from lions rock productions. We create podcasts around here. And if you your brand, or your company want to figure out how to do a podcast, just talk to me, I'll give you the advice on the right gear. The best plan is show you how to take a podcast that makes sense for you that's sustainable, that scalable and fun. Hit me up at Pete at breakdown show. com Let me help I want to hear about it. In you know, in Germany, and granted, it's just practice, but they don't know that.
Jeff Felmet 30:41
I can only imagine what the people of the town thought they somebody had to talk to like the police department and everything else before we got there. Because we were definitely sticking out like sore thumbs. I can only imagine, you know, our bosses walking around looking at you know, watching them everything else we somebody had to have coordinated up beforehand, because there's no way we wouldn't have around suspicion. But yeah, it was, you know, sitting in McDonald's for an hour and a half waiting for somebody to walk by, you know, just just keeping your eyes on and walking down the same street back and forth. Just because, you know, we were part of one little exercise, but you know, it was happening over and over again while we were out there. And like how many meetings you had, you know, you probably met with 10 people. Oh my god.
Pete Turner 31:27
Yeah, all the old all day long. I drink you know, hot chocolate with cream all day long. Yeah.I even had a little allowance they gave me because I was going to be sitting there. They're like, you know, here's some extra money to buy food all day, you know? Yeah. Funny. Yeah.
Jeff Felmet 31:44
I did have a pretty neat experience with that. I remember we were we were walking it is just numbers. My team we must have been done for the day. And I don't know if you remember Nancy, Richard shoot her. Yeah, she you know, she spoke German. I remember one time we were walking in. Man, really old man came up and just started. He started crying and talking to us. And he wanted to give us hugs. And we're like, wow, you know, I could understand like half of what he was saying. And, and he pulled up his sleeve. And it had the, you know, the numbers tattooed on him or write us a prisoner of war concentration camp. And he was just telling us how he knew we were American boys. Like, once again, we stick out like sore throats. He knew we're Americans. And he just wanted to hug us. And he said that the the most beautiful sight he'd ever seen in his life was an American face when they came in freedom from the concentration camp, and you just want to give us all hugs and shake our hand. And I thought was pretty cool. That was that was nice. That made me made me proud of what I was doing and proud of, of who we were and who we were as a country and, you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah. And in Germany, Germany was going through a change when we were there. You know, it was in the early 90s. We weren't always welcome everywhere. There were a lot of people that were tired, us being there and, and ready for us to go home. But but then you hear people that really appreciated what we did and what we have done in the world. So
Pete Turner 33:09
yeah, it was a neat time to be there. Because the all of the healing for the most part was done. But there were still folks that couldn't heal, you know, like that guy there. I mean, just to think that you get a chance to interact with someone like that. You know, that's crazy. I mean, if you think about it this way, you know, we were there. 40-50 years later. So someone who was 10 at the time is only 60 years old, you know, just kind of cruising around, you know, wearing a golf shirt and a bad tracksuit. And so there were all kinds of folks that were there, you know, just walking around like that, that that was the time that we were there and and then also the Russians, nobody liked the Russians were there or the Turks.
Jeff Felmet 33:53
Yeah, yeah.
Pete Turner 33:55
So okay. In terms of practicing, did you feel like you got better when we go to a shopping Berg and go practice all the you know, the meeting, by the way, one of the places where we were designed, designated to meet that was actually it was spices, cafe, and then the word spices and in German looks like spice. When you see it? I'd be ever knew, like if that was on purpose to be kind of ironic and funny. But it was awesome. But did you give me this the bigger question want to ask is How did you get better at your job? Because we all got better, right? I mean, I talked to 1007 people in Bosnia, I got to watch all of you guys come and work with me as a source. So what what made the difference to get you from knucklehead AIT, I don't know what the hell I'm doing to someone who is proficient and deployable.
Jeff Felmet 34:52
You know what,
I mean, obviously, I think it was just just practice and just doing things over and over again, but a lot of it you know, I can say little, you know, little things with, with certain people I was working with, will help me get a little bit better. And I know that I honestly, maybe it's just that I didn't feel 100% comfortable or, or I wanted to be more of a perfectionist or what I was doing. But I, I probably never felt totally. Like I knew exactly what I was doing over there. And I ended up going later on over to Saudi Arabia, and I had a, I felt much better in that environment, doing what I was doing there. But when I was in, in Bosnia, I was pretty much I don't know what my I Warrant Officer didn't really stand up for me that much. I did a lot of guard duty KPDD latrines, latrine dirty, and then actually had to end up some standing by the truck a lot. So, so I didn't feel as though I got utilized to the best of my ability out there. Right. But, you know, some people I know, we're pretty much set free to do what they wanted and practice their craft where I said, I was, I was pretty much held on a leash, and I didn't like it. It was it was definitely didn't feel like I was being used to the best of my ability.
Pete Turner 36:24
And that wasn't necessarily reflection of you. That was reflection of your team boss, because our team is like our jobs to be out every day. Let's go. And, and that's how I was raised, you know?
Jeff Felmet 36:36
Yeah. Yeah. We had some pretty, pretty big disagreements and, and my, so my chief got taken from me at the last minute.
I was supposed to go down with
Chief Olmsted. And he ended up taking a tour in Turkey at the last moment. So end up with some, somebody who I'd never met before, showed up and took us down there. So yeah, we practiced and lead up and got ready to go with one guy and then all sudden, gone. Yeah.
Pete Turner 37:12
All right. Well, so my next unit, Nancy Richards was my boss, which was wonderful, because she knew that I had crap bosses in Germany, and she said, I'm going to take care of you. And she did. And I'm forever grateful to her for that. You on the other hand, went to Fort Gordon, where a lot of us went, and he got to deploy a lot more and really establish yourself as someone who could gather Intel. So something changed something stuck. talking a little bit about your time working at Gordon. Well,
Jeff Felmet 37:42
so So I had a chance to leave Germany and I'm glad I did or leave bosnia because I was in Bosnia when I left and when I came back on so I'm from Georgia, so came back home to Georgia and show up in Fort Gordon. And first day there, I see my old chief from from Heidelberg, jag Nanos down there. And I remember it had to been like, was it the first Thursday or the second Thursday, I was in in Fort Gordon. And the guy in commander comes out and says, we've been tasked to release this core in Bosnia will be gearing up will be gearing up to leave in January. And I was like, and this was like, October. Yeah. No, fucking way. I don't want to go. So, so gagner was putting together a team to go replace the guys over in Saudi and and the team we replaced is actually the guys that were they were there during the Khobar Towers bombing. So we were so the guys we replaced were, that's how close we were to that timeframe. You know, the the guys over there at the time, where were four there? So I said, Chief, you got it. Yeah, I can't. I can't go back to want to go back to that. And do it again. So so she put together a team, I think we took nine people with us, we took four, four of us with Riyadh and four or five of us went to Darren. And I got lucky I got to go to Riyadh. So I didn't have to go with the chief or the or the six or seven I guess he was I didn't have to go with either. Now my so I went to basically a separate little field off, it was me and linguists, and a couple more agents and went to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, had a great time, never put a uniform on the day, I was over there. grew my hair up a little facial hair on whatever I could. And I basically just drove around in my Jeep Cherokee and talk to a whole bunch of people, metal, metal, lot of people a lot of security people from, you know, saw the airport and all every, you know, American company that was over there we out there had their own basically their own people doing the same job we were doing just for their companies got together a lot of meetings at the embassy in their, in their cool. Faraday cage rooms that they had up there. So yeah, I mean,
Pete Turner 40:16
the faridan Yes. So okay. And this is exciting, because this is actual stuff. And, you know, you're doing spy work, you're going out trying to find things out. Largely unsupervised. You know, and whatever you had, it was more, I would assume more guidance than you have to do this. You have to do that. It was like, go out, cultivate something. And let's, let's start writing reports. Yeah,
Jeff Felmet 40:40
yeah. So I got there got to basically read a lot of reports and a lot of source meetings, a lot of source reports that, you know, once again, I don't know if anything I talked about ever turned into anything. You know, that was, we were really big on on bin Laden. That was because we were not far from his interview with the Peter Jennings. And he did that in view it right. You know, he said he was gonna kill all of us. We weren't far away from from that timeframe. So he was, he was definitely on our radar. I don't know if he was on anybody else's radar. But we were talking and one thing I always found funny is one of the airbase of south of Riyadh, they were building hard barracks at the time, and been logging construction was doing the, the building. And you know, I wrote that down like 100 times, like, why the hell are we letting him build? family or whatever. But, yeah, I just knew one day, one day, those barracks were just all blow up because they built the concrete with explosives in it.
Pete Turner 41:38
Yeah, you this way. And here's the thing is like, you know, someone like Jeff doesn't know what he doesn't know, he's just, he's out there. Literally, just at this level of work, his job is to go out, meet people interact with them, and tell them what he sees and hears. So you know, he is supposed to go the bin Laden companies building barracks that we're going to live in, is this a good idea? You know, maybe that gets up three layers? And like, yeah, yeah, that's fine. We don't care. You know, but Jeff doesn't know that. And, and, and it was your idea. No one's coming, Jeff. We want less about the barracks more about, you know, whatever. And, I mean, you have some questions you're supposed to answer. But largely, you're just trying to find anything out. And whether your Intel is good, it is part of the machine, it's someone else's job to sort of doing what you're doing. So how did you? How did you get into places like the embassy? How did you get to meet people at the airport, at the hospital? All of these places where you establish some network?
Jeff Felmet 42:35
Well, I'm not most of them were, were given to me by the ongoing team, you know, we were, you know, passed off. And, you know, you know, we had like, almost a, we had a two week overlay. And so during the first two weeks, you know, the guys that were there before me would drive me around and basically introduce me to everybody that they've been talking to, and, and once again, we weren't not, we were not super covert. I, I never said the word. We were a little bit more, you know, more kind of sneaky about who we were like, I don't think I use the word US Army. I don't think I use the word intelligence. But I was, you know, US government security, you know, that kind of thing. And we're, so they knew exactly what I was looking for. And, and mostly, we were just quite open about what we're, what we're, you know, interested in anything that might be harmful to us, anything you guys could think of. And, and, and part of the, the idea was, you know, we give some back to them, too. So that's one thing we talked about when we get to the embassy meetings, is we be given information to pass back down to make, you know, to make it a two way street. But, yeah, the embassy and you know, the other thing that was kind of neat about Saudi Arabia is there's, there's like, there was, well, back then this was what 97 there was. There's like three different missions going on there. There was our mission, which was continuation of Desert Storm, which had Patriot missile batteries, protecting Saudi Arabia. And that's, that's what we were supporting. And then there were there were other guys that were over there that were totally just was it OPM saying so operation program management, Saudi Arabia, National Guard, or whatever, they were just, they were there, they could do anything they wanted. They were, they just drove around the country all day long and did whatever they wanted. Where were the Patriot missile guys were all locked down and couldn't be anything that they would be they had their own Intel guys. So we'd interact with them. And we go back and forth. And we talk and get to the get to pass this around. But yeah, so a lot of the, you know, the meeting was was handouts, and then I meet my own I remember when we met some guys subdirectory one night that were that were Americans that were this this guy, this guy. This guy's whole job, new shit, American. And his whole job was to put satellite dishes and Avi systems in a Saudi Arabian princes, castles or palaces. And so we started talking to him, and he tell us stuff all day long. It was cool. Yeah, because, you know, one of our big concern was the Saudi, the Saudi kingdom, you know, because eventually, they would not like us anymore. And they would want us to leave. And we did. We wanted to keep tabs on that. So, yeah.
Pete Turner 45:22
So how long were you in Saudi doing all that collection? Six months? And then were you always intending on getting out of the army after that assignment? You know,
Jeff Felmet 45:35
I just kind of got to the point where I realized that if there was no regularity to my life, it was it was going to be Move, move, move all the time. Or, or deploy, deploy, deploy. So yeah, I kinda while I was there, I got to a point where I was done. Right,
Pete Turner 45:52
right. Let me go back to some of the stuff that you were doing so so you're in town. When I talk to people, I always often said I was just up front about it, right? because like you said, you can say you're with us security. But what the fuck does that mean? You know, they're already assuming that you're a spy. So you know.
Jeff Felmet 46:12
I don't know. I mean, yeah, we were basically told not to use certain certain terms. But yeah, I think I think the more you know, somebody, the more you talk to them. It's just kind of an unspoken rule as to who you are. Yeah, I think they know. Like you said, I don't think it was very secretive. They know exactly that I worked for, you know, the GO second Mr. To die in the hour. You know,
but yeah, they I think they do.
Pete Turner 46:38
Yeah, I sort of went with that. And I just realized that by being open and honest, like, hey, yeah, I'm here. I'm here gathering information, trying to keep everybody safe. So if you know about something, please let me know. I'm not really going to ask about that. I want to get to know you guys. You know, and so, yeah, I just had handled it straight on because, you know, I just didn't presume I mean, I didn't tell him what unit that was with but and we we all patches are shit was out everywhere, so that you can figure that part out. But yeah, it seems shocking to people to say it, but the reality was, is we weren't allowed to not say it.
Jeff Felmet 47:10
Yeah. I mean, they went as far as when it decided they made us carry two passports with us. So I had to have my, my brown diplomat one. And then I had my, my blue personal one. And they wanted us when we went out and about to pick our blue ones. And just kind of because we had to leave those IDs when we went into these different things. So they didn't want us to leave and our our government issued one, right? Yeah,
Pete Turner 47:36
yeah, it was sometimes some of us got diplomatic passports are different color server, different function. You're right. It's, you know, as soon as you think it's not a spy game, right? You know, like, those guys just talked to people at Rutgers realize that we had an allowance for cash to spend, we have the ability to, you know, to give people booze when no one else in the army. And also we had multiple passports. It's not Jason Bourne, but it's not all that different. You know, it's, it's, it's pretty close, ultimately. Okay, so when you look back at that time in, in Saudi and when you were getting to finally do what you got to do, and you're having fun, even though that fun was not enough to keep me in the army. What? What was your most proud moment? Like? What stood out to you like, man, actually, I actually can do this.
Jeff Felmet 48:26
You know what, I think a lot of it was like I said, a lot of the people I met in Saudi likes it. So it was definitely my, my favorite part of the intelligence game and just that what I got to do there, but but I think, actually got to give a briefing in the embassy. And and that was kind of cool. Because I'm standing up there, you know, guys from the company are there and they're there. You know, some people with some pretty high credentials are sitting in that in that room, and they asked me my opinion asked me for my information, I get to stand up and give it that was pretty cool. I think they actually listened to what I say. So
Pete Turner 49:13
what did you get absolutely wrong. What do you look back and be like, God, damn, I was dumb.
Jeff Felmet 49:20
Jeez, probably everything. Nah. I don't know, man. I don't know. I honestly don't know if I like said once again, I don't know what I knew. I don't know, whatever happened with anything I ever said. But, uh, what's a good question? I think about that. absolutely wrong.
Pete Turner 49:42
So what did you go on to become? Because obviously, you left the army. You wanted to stay in Georgia, where you're from?
Jeff Felmet 49:48
Yeah. So So I got out of the army. And I and I thought, you know, I went to college, actually. So, so while I was in Saudi Arabia applied for applied to college and actually took the three months, early out, they're supposed to get out in December, I got out in September. So I can start school and I fully intended to go to school for criminal justice. And I was looking at, you know, FBI, CIA, you know, that kind of thing. But life got in the way. It was expensive, you know, thousand dollar a month GI Bill, not enough to live on when when you got car payments, and rent and everything else. So, so I did a year of school for criminal justice. And then I, before I went in the army, I was, I was a volunteer firefighter. And I got back, I started, you know, volunteering again. And I ended up going to EMT, school paramedic school and became a firefighter. So I've been doing that for 20 years now. Wow.
Pete Turner 50:44
And when you look back at that time, would you've taken a different path? Like, would you have just started with the fire thing earlier? Or do you really treasure your time in the army? I mean, relationships aside, I mean, I keep touch with so many of you guys. I know. I wouldn't trade that for anything. And if anything, I would tell my I would tell my backbend self to go out even more do even more stuff in Germany because the time was short, we didn't know. Right? And there was so much to do still.
Jeff Felmet 51:12
Yeah, you know what I, I would not give up my time in the military, or anything in the world. I think it helped me grow up. It helped me become a responsible young man instead of a punk kid. I think everybody should do it. Honestly, I wish we were one of these countries that that made everybody go and serve their country for a couple years. I sometimes I think maybe I would have reenlisted. done some more. I don't know. But I don't know where things would have gone differently. I have friends that started this career that I'm working with right now that are eligible to retire from here right now. Right? Could be, you know, instead, so no, I wouldn't change anything that for for the world, I met a lot of interesting people that to be a lot of cool things. Talk about it on your show. So it's, it's fun. I said, I wouldn't, I wouldn't change anything. I wish I'd had a little bit more freedom in, in, in the job I was doing and like I said, Bosnia and stuff. But other than that, I had a great time.
Pete Turner 52:17
So Jeff's career, if you could probably can't do the math only, like Jeff and I can't just started in December, and I started in March. So again, like Jeff and I are time overlapped. And we I think at the time, we were aware of each other, but really had no reason to interact. Because he just you're in such a different point in your career. At that point. It's like an early, early person to three months later, you just totally different, you know, passing but he left bosnia mid deployment, which is pretty sweet, especially for guy that didn't have a great job. And I was able to deploy just ahead of the main body because we all went back and like in October, and I had to, I had or maybe no, very, they came back in November. So but I had to come back to start out processing and you know, back then you got a month out process no matter what. And so, you know, I didn't say anything, I'm on a remote camp, I don't want to go back to the main camp because they always stuck with me. And so basically, I let the time run out. And I'm like, all right, well, I'm here, I've gotta go home. You know, because it's not my job to keep track of that stuff. It's their job. I know what I'm supposed to leave. And First Sergeant ON lost his mind. He's like, no, you're redeployment the main body? And I'm like, No, I'm not. I have to go back to our process. You know, so I got to leave, like two weeks early. I didn't have to do all the bullshit, you know, all that stuff. And for whatever reason, and I don't know why I mean, I'm positive. We were guilty of, you know, our attitude and everything. But guys, like you and I were not looked upon. Despite the fact that I want every single board I sat in front of always had 300 PT always shot expert. You know, it didn't matter what we did, we were always going to have a negative impression sewn at us. What do you think it was, man?
Jeff Felmet 54:10
You know, what I think part of the problem is we were in we were low ranking, guys that were very smart. I mean, you know, some of us, I didn't live in a lot of us had college degrees already a lot of us had, you know, lives before they had, you know, jobs and even careers and, and for some reason, ended up joining the army, you know, and I think our MLS was just just an odd MLS, you know, we had to have the high scores, you know, the high, you know, scores and stuff. And, and it's just, I think we're in a, I think we're different type of people in the environment. And I think it's just we didn't always mix well, you know, I mean, we're as educated and as smart as the officers in our NR units that didn't get the respect for it, you know?
Pete Turner 55:04
Yeah, I remember. And we'll close this thing up here pretty quick. I remember, like saying, I want to play softball, you know, and I asked around, like, which one of you sergeants wants to run this softball team? And they are all you know, because we're all a bunch of dorks. For the most part of them. There were a few of us that were athletes, but for the most part, there were very few and I'm like, come on, it's fun. We should go play softball and get get into the rec league thing, and nobody would do it. And and I kept getting told that I didn't take initiative, even though I was doing correspondence courses and, you know, going to ports I didn't have to go to and I needed to show some leadership thing. So Michael, fuck it up. I know how to run a team. I've done it in civilian world. I'll put a team together and Jeff was awesome. I said, Jeff, you're playing softball with us. Jeff would go out of his way to drive up leave work early. And I said the only rule is you have to have a giant Levi Garrett cha in your jaw when you play.
Jeff Felmet 55:57
That was a that was a that was a wrap. From Heidelberg to Darmstadt of at least it was it? 45 minutes an hour. Yeah, at least that
Pete Turner 56:05
Yeah.
Jeff Felmet 56:06
Yeah. Jonathan. I remember I had my wisdom teeth pulled out. And I played like, the next day. Having a chew in my mouth with the packing in my living. I didn't care. I still play softball. Actually, I play every Tuesday night.
Pete Turner 56:23
Do you really? Where do you play on the field?
Jeff Felmet 56:25
Yeah. Well, I try not to play third base anymore, because I know I'm just too slow. But I have played a couple games. But usually I'm pitching. Catching a plane first.
Pete Turner 56:36
Nice.
Unknown Speaker 56:39
So far,
Pete Turner 56:39
we had a great time playing softball. We weren't terribly good. Did you play football with us as well?
Jeff Felmet 56:45
Yeah, yeah, I played flag football there actually played, I played softball in Saudi Arabia, I got hooked up with a marine from the US Embassy. And he played on just a local team as with a bunch of doctors and people that work for the hospital. So that's pretty cool. I used it as a meetings and get to go and play softball, and I played, played on a team. That's pretty cool.
Pete Turner 57:11
Nice, man. Well, hey, listen, I appreciate you coming on. I know, I always enjoy catching up with you guys. And I worry that the, you know, like the people listening, my friends and all those guys, they're like, Ah, you know, we don't want to hear that crap. But it turns out, that's always wrong. Like they always like, it's great to hear you guys chat. And it's like sitting in on a conversation. Plus, we really get to talk about spy stuff. I mean, we really did get to learn about dead drops, you know, we really did get to learn about, you know, all these different things like surveillance, we we did do that. You know, when we went to the schoolhouse, I think my class was the last class to have as much surveillance as they taught me, buddy. And within a year, it was all gone, you know. So we've gone around government cars with radios in our ears and go, you know, and then talking art is a code that we all talk. It's not classified, but it's sensitive. But we use code words so that we could literally talk out in front of people and they wouldn't know what we were saying. But they would know we were saying weird shit. So we really did get to go do this. It's not an imaginary thing. And sometimes, Jeff, I just it blows my mind that we got to go be spies in Germany. Oh, yeah.
Jeff Felmet 58:16
It sometimes. Sometimes it seems like a lifetime ago. But then when we sit here and talk to you like was just yesterday?
Pete Turner 58:22
Yeah, for sure. Well, listen, man, I appreciate you coming on. Thanks for hanging out. You actually work as a fire marshal for in Georgia and also have your own consulting business. So anybody in Georgia who wants to get some fire equities my man Jeff.
Jeff Felmet 58:38
Yeah, sure. That's That's great. First Response at
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Hey everybody this is Pete a Turner from lions rock productions the break it down the show. I'm filling in today for john on the intro because I've known with today's guest for over 25 years. He's a longtime friend of mine, someone I knew back in my days in the army in Germany and the mighty mighty 160 fifth MI battalion. Now you've heard a few shows where I've had other peers from that time frame on and what I love about this is Bryan fuller was one of those guests and also Carl Keininger and I'm going to continue to show you guys these people. But in fact, we really were a counterintelligence agents, we really, we're spies our day to day job involved around some kind of collection or prevention of collection against us. The reality is actually a lot more interesting, you know how we went about our training when we felt confident about our ability to collect actually getting a chance to collect. That's what I think makes the Spy vs. spies episodes truly unique, and unattainable anywhere else. I'm trying to give all of us the ability to one sit in on a conversation that you're like, man, I'd love to meet this guy. And that's, that's totally what happens here. Because Jeff is such a likeable guy. He's from Georgia, and I'm positive. If any of you met him, you would feel like oh, that's my friend, we have a good time. But also, just to illustrate really what is a spy, I mean, all we really get to know is like the NSA and the CIA. We don't know anything about those guys. And then also what we see in movies, which is isn't really reality. Here's the reality. This is, this episode really gives you an idea of what it takes to become someone who can go into an area unknown, unfamiliar, not ethnically from that area, and start to pull information in. So I really hope you guys enjoy film it as much as I do. Jeff is a great friend of mine, if you get a chance, take a look at the picture that accompanies this episode, because one, it's Jeff and I back in my back in the 90s, and our playboy days, but also a gorgeous lady who I have no idea where she is now what her name was. But we met her in Denmark from moment grabbed a picture and just this was what was great about Germany in the 90s, we got a chance to go out and travel. And you're to see and Jeff and I probably had just one of the highest points in our friendship, having a great time on the road. And just doing what Americans do find people to fall in love with. I love all you guys is I do this, all of this out of love to tell stories, whether you live in Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, North America, always different continents, people listen to the breakdown show and I from my heart. I really truly thank you feel encouraged to reach out to me on twitter at Pete a Turner or Facebook or Instagram. We want to hear from you. We want to talk to you guys. And if you would do me this favor, subscribe, rate review, wherever you listen to the show, it would really be helpful to us, it really helps others to discover the show if you like it, share it. That's how you help that right there is a big, big help. And then one more thing I want to make sure we mentioned is that we've officially partnered with Scott Hughes's charity, save the brave. These guys are doing legit work. These are my people I talked to them. I know. They take service members who have PTSD, and they get them out of their environment, surround them with fellowship, give them a great day. And they're really look, all of the money goes towards this cause I think maybe 3% of the money goes towards administration. Everybody works for free. And I don't charge them for this. I do this out of the goodness of what we have to do here with our service charter. So again, thanks to everybody. Thanks to Jeff. You guys are really going to enjoy this chat. And now Jeff helmet, millions rock productions.
Jay Mohr 3:39
This is Jay Mohr
Unknown Speaker 3:39
This is Jordan Harbinger
Unknown Speaker 3:41
Texture from the naked Sebastian youngsters, Rick Morocco,
stewart copeland 3:44
This is Stewart Copeland
Skunk Baxter 3:47
This is Skunk Baxter,
Unknown Speaker 3:48
Gabby Reese, Rob belly, this is Johnny Andre, and
Pete Turner 3:51
this is Pete a Turner.
Jeff Felmet 3:54
Hey, this is Jeff Felmet and you're listening to the break it down show.
Niko Leon Guerrero 4:00
And now the breakdown show with john Leon Guerrero and Pete a Turner.
Pete Turner 4:07
Yes, yes, yes. Jeff is a friend of mine from Gosh, Jeff 25 years ago now And we actually first met in a IT you were a class or two ahead of me, I remember you being there. But you know how it is when you're in school, you don't really it's like the the older class people don't really associate with the younger class folks much. But we ended up in the same unit, oddly enough, is officially a Spy vs. Spy show. Because you've done a lot of that work. And obviously, so by so we were assigned together in Germany, and I just wanted to take a chance to check in with you because you're one of my favorite people from that era of my life, and still one of my favorite people. But it was always great, because you were just you were down, you're ready to have fun, you're ready to work and all those things. And I just I love the heck out of you. And thanks for coming on the show, man.
Jeff Felmet 4:56
No problem. Thanks for having me.
Pete Turner 4:57
Let's talk a little bit about those days in June, you were in Heidelberg, he would often come up to us to hang out, we would often come down to you. But what are your some of your memories from that time of our life?
Jeff Felmet 5:10
Oh, geez, I just, I remember how cool it was living over in a foreign country being young. I turned 21 when I was over there, and just that how neat it was just to be able to, you know, the way the country was just being able to ride trains everywhere and going out and just experiencing a different culture. It was, it was a good time,
Pete Turner 5:34
when you look at the experience that we had, specifically in terms of let's talk about training, you know, go into a shop. Because what a lot of folks don't realize is like when I say I'm a spy, they're like, they don't understand it. They understand it more than when I say I'm a counterintelligence agent, though, and this is what I've learned, right? So if I say, Oh, I was a counter intelligence agent, a badge to credential federal agent, they like I don't know what that means. But if I say I was a spy, they at least have a response to not always a positive ones. Like what are you talking about? Why would you say that? That kind of thing. So let's talk a little bit about what it meant to be a spy for us in our area. What kind of things did you do on a day to day basis when you were working? Because you worked out in the field office, which is pretty sweet gig?
Jeff Felmet 6:14
Yeah. So so my day to day basis when we were when we were in Germany was to do security clearance investiga tions, basically. So we took on the arm who wasn't we were working for Defense Intelligence Service, I guess we're doing there. And we're just basically updating soldiers security clearances, but yeah, that we are always training for the the idea of the deployment, which we got to do. Now to Bosnia, but mostly, it was pretty, it was definitely, you know, two different realms that we're in. I mean, I like our job was very spread out. Lots of different things.
Pete Turner 7:01
Yeah, it's hard because you really had a nine to five job doing these clearances and and so the audience understands Jeff's job was to wear a suit, which is not normal for a 21 year old army kid, go out and engage with people in his region, which was Heidelberg and fucking lucky you and have conversations with you know, the person themselves who had the clearance, but also the people around them. And there's a lot of dead ends that you have to go chase. Because you think about this, the Army's always moving people around. So a guy that he worked with two years that the person you're looking into, worked with two years ago is gone. But you have to do your due diligence to go find that person up. They're not here they moved on they've, they've been reassigned to somewhere else. Hey, this is Pete real quick, I just want to let you guys know, we are proud to announce our official support of save the brave, a certified nonprofit 501 c three, with a charter of helping veterans with post traumatic stress. Here's how you can help go to save the brave. com, click on the link on the website. And my recommendation is this subscribe, give them 20 bucks a month, you've got subscriptions you can turn off right now that you're not using that are $20 a month, swap that out get involved. Let's help these folks out. They've been reassigned to somewhere else. So you spend a lot of time it seemed to me, Jeff, tell me if I'm wrong. You spent a lot of time not interviewing people and more just trying to find people to interview.
Jeff Felmet 8:26
Yeah, I think part of the biggest thing was we would develop references. So I mean, you know, the guy that you put down on your paperwork as being a reference was not the guy we want to talk to you. We want to talk to you, the other people that that guy knew that knew you so. So yeah, we would do a lot of that just going around. I mean, it would really depend on what level we were at. Sometimes we went out and talk to people that other investigators in other parts of the country figured out that we need to go talk to you and they would task us with specific individuals in this top two, or we would, you know, go to the records, checks and just check the MP station reshare that never got arrested while they were there or whatever. It was just a lot of it meant it was mundane stuff. Like the part I enjoyed the most was getting to go talk to generals and having them call me sir. When I walked in their office, you know, they obviously knew who I was.
Pete Turner 9:20
Yeah. And that work was, like you said it was mixed with this whole, like, get ready to go to war with there was no war, but we didn't know what else to do. So we had to maintain our tactical proficiency in tactical things, while still remaining style still remaining proficient in the strategic, you know, investigation side of things. Did you feel like you? Did you ever really? Look, we were young agents back then. Did you feel like you ever really got developed in anything because we had so much to cover?
Jeff Felmet 9:53
You know what I don't I honestly I, I felt like I was just new enough to be dating dress and a lot of things. You know, I mean, I would go one day, I'm out checking the oil and tires in my Humvee all day. And the next day, I'm putting on a suit and doing interviews and the next day, we're practicing setting up camouflage netting, and then then we go to the field and do surveillance training. And it says so much different stuff.
Pete Turner 10:21
Yeah, let's talk about I wonder, I now look fondly upon that time, I did not look forward to it. When we, when we were doing it, because there was so much bullshit around going, you know, you had to maintain a stove. And, you know, and it was like everybody else got to do planning things. And then knuckleheads like us had to go out and like you said, one day it'd be like fuller and I in a container somewhere scrubbing with steel brushes scrubbing down stone so they wouldn't be rusty. And and then you're like, this whole the whole manifold here is broken. And as long as it looks good, all just oiled up and Rusty, that's all Mike but it's not gonna work. doesn't have the right parts. It doesn't matter as long as it looks good. So we we come back covered in oil and you like how kind of a spy Am I you know, like, those are the crazy days when, when you have to change the tires and all those things. I remember one time, probably the hardest thing I ever did in the army, and I'm not exaggerating, was change a Humvee tire with a hand jack, and and no, like, no. No real wrench, I had this wrench that they brought with the Humvee that was like a 10 fold, like extended extended, extended extended out, Evan, you would wrench on the on the nut obvious, so impossible. Like if you're picturing the standard tire changing, like, you know, x wrench or T wrench, whatever you call those things. Not that the shiniest version of that possible. And it took me hours in Bosnia to change one damn time. Because I couldn't, I couldn't just drive over to the motor pool where they actually had tools, I had to use the hand tools. That was the stupidest thing ever.
Jeff Felmet 12:10
Well, I never had to do that. Thank God, you didn't have to break a tire apart and put a new tire on or did you on a rim did you have to do that or just take one tire off and put another time I
Pete Turner 12:19
taking that one tire off and putting it back on was a significant challenge with the tools I was given. It was giving something less than a socket wrench to do it. And I'm not even joking. Like that was the the, if I could, I have to find a picture of that stupid tool. It literally was like, it was like, let's picture a foot long piece of metal that was segmented. So you could make it three feet long. So it would like get longer and longer. And that thing you would go to twist and put torque on it. And the whole wrench, I was worried that I was going to break the wrench. You know, and now I'm trying to break I don't know, 120 pounds of torque on this thing. And it's freezing fucking cold outside, you know, we get trained all the time. Don't touch metal, don't touch metal. And then I have all this metal that I'm touching constantly by myself. By the way, nobody else out there. Just freezing my ass off changing the fucking tire.
Jeff Felmet 13:16
And I'm lucky I didn't have to do that. I just had to clean a lot of shit buckets from the latrine.
Pete Turner 13:24
But you did get to do some of the spy work now maybe so in Boston, did you get to do much? Or were you guys not properly employed? Well,
Jeff Felmet 13:32
you know, I don't know how it was where you're at. But basically, we we were in the town of Madonna. And we went back and forth across into Serbia pretty much every day. But they kept us with a group. So we would go out with civil affairs and psychological ops. And then us so don't know. I mean, we were definitely not covert in our actions. Like, they knew exactly who we were and what we were doing. And we never use the word intelligence and we never use the word. Spy we always use like security. But we went out and talk I don't I don't know how much information there is to gather when you're walking when you're driving into town with seven Humvees and guys sitting on top of that, you know, the scouts and their turrets and, and we're all loaded up, you know. And I know it took a lot of pictures with kids next to my Humvee and got a lot of candy and bubble gum with little stickers inside. Yeah, but uh, I don't know, I don't know how much we actually gathered out there. But it was. It was interesting. What was interesting about it. Oh, they're just, you know, one thing I always found others that we considered the Serbians, the bad guys seem pretty nice to me, except for the, obviously their war criminal that they had. But they, but the people were nice. At least that's what I realized, or thought the most about out there. But I don't know, it's just, you know, there's just the whole the way, the way the system works, you know, every little piece of information that we would gather we we might find out that, you know, somebody was talking bad about our camp that was 20 miles away, but we'd write it down and come back and write a report about it. And then eventually, that goes all the way up and somebody's reading it. And they put two and two together and figure something out. You know, it I never really thought we learned anything, but maybe we did. Who knows? Yeah. And we're at the very, we're at the very bottom of that totem pole.
Pete Turner 15:50
Yeah, that's fair. I mean, being at the bottom of the totem pole, or, or you could say, the tip of the spear, depending on how you want to look at it, you know?
Jeff Felmet 15:57
Sure. If you want to make it sound cool. Yeah,
Pete Turner 15:59
yeah. But I mean, No, for real, though you are going outside, you are going into Serbia. And we definitely taken sides. And the Serbs for sure had a reason to be pretty pissed off at us. And and you can remember at the time, this is largely for the audience, because I know you remember, we didn't know that this piece was kind of hope. You know, we weren't convinced that hadn't helped previously. So we did what at least in terms of where we were Jeff, we were expecting someone to be running guns and weapons and planning for another attack. And then we were going to get overrun in the process. You know, that would that was sort of what we were briefed on. And also, let's not forget, every time they talked about how many minds were in the country, that you know, they would grow exponentially. Do you remember that?
Jeff Felmet 16:44
Oh, man, I got pictures of me standing in the snow with woods behind me with the scientists a mine on it. Yeah, just standing there, knowing that there were land mines. I remember one of the talking about mines, remember, and the big big lesson was if you didn't drop it, don't pick it up. Right? That was always the don't if you didn't drop it, don't pick it up. Because while your fingers off, you know, put a coke can on the ground and it'll blow your fingers off. And that'll put you out of commission. I remember one day. So we're we're over there with 412 infantry, mechanized infantry, and these guys, they never got to leave. So you know, I do consider myself lucky that I got there at least go out. And you know, every day was a little bit different day. These guys were over there for a year never got to leave their compound. Wow. And, and they were just going nuts. And I remember one day, we were coming back from our from our mission in the sergeant major had his guys outside of camp, walking down the road, picking up trash on the track. And we're just like going nuts. Like, what the fuck are you doing? We're not supposed to pick up trash. You know, what are you doing? And he's all these guys are? This is a disgrace, and blah, blah, blah, it's like, idiot, you're going to get somebody killed. So yeah, it's just, it definitely was a weird, you know, you know, going through the towns and and just seeing the destruction and how much I mean, everything was just kind of weird. And then you know, you talked a little bit earlier about going out shopping Berg and grass and beer and stuff. And, you know, I remember going through the training in the box and not knowing that we were getting ready to go to Bosnia in six months, and then how much that shit really look like, Bosnia. Now the towns look like it have a street signs look like it? And it's like, we have no clue. You know, I didn't, I didn't know what we are getting ready to go there. And it's just weird how, you know how, probably how much in the future they had been planning for that stuff.
Pete Turner 18:43
You know, it's funny. Where we, when we trade, I want to talk about a shot from Bergen a minute, but when when we trained in a shop, and it was nothing like what I had, because we didn't really live in a built up area. We were out in the countryside, talking to farmers and stuff. And so in my world, it doesn't even occur to me. But there are city people and that any of us worked in any kind of a built up area that looked like Europe. You know, like that's just when you said that it just dawned on me that Oh, yeah, that's right. That's it. Even though I went to a bunch of places, we went to Syria a vo and did some work. We got kind of farmed around a little bit. So I did get to work in those areas. But my memory is all rural farm. donkeys, you know, that kind of thing. I want to ask you a little bit more about working out, you know, near Serbia, it's kind of neat to that, you know, like teams like yours like ours, we got to cross international borders to go do our work. And that's pretty rare to be able to do that. When I mean, how many people got to go to Serbia in the late 90s? You know, and walk around and check things out. That's, that's cool.
Unknown Speaker 19:47
Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff Felmet 19:50
Yeah, it was, uh, yeah, I certainly will go through the the loss zone, a separation, we dragged you there. And that was the only reason that I'm at your first armor, this went down with us. And for the a one Abrams tanks of all they could do is sit, sit at checkpoints, you know, this couldn't even drive anywhere in that country. Because all the hill and stuff that they would just, they put them at a checkpoint, I don't think they move for, for a year. You're sat there and pointed what down one way and putting down the other. It was a little windy roads and stuff. And I just, you know, every day we did it, I mean, obviously it got kind of routine, but just thinking, Man, we're going to get ambushed out here, you know, they would, you know, I drove zombies. So I was I had to be taught you know, don't ever stop and give yourself room to drive forward and drive through the drive through the block or whatever happened, you know, so it's kind of definitely fresh, little frustrating for sometimes, and then Maureen and others, but then there was definitely some time that was kind of any.
Pete Turner 20:53
So going back to the trash thing I recall, we were in Hungary, and it was myself. And we had this Lieutenant who she wasn't awesome. Let's just say that. And we were by the edge of the road, you know, getting ready to drive into getting ready to drive into Bosnia. And it was like the last thing we did like we were literally the next time we shut the door. We were not getting out of the car until we were there. And she was taking all of her Ricky and chewy wrappers, you know, her pokey bait all of her snacks and candy wrappers and throwing them over her shoulder into an irrigation ditch on the side of the road and hungry and first turn Oh, and saw this and lost his mind. And I'm laughing because there's a field with the cow next to us. That's all turned over, clearly doesn't have mines in it. Because we're not in Bosnia, we are in hungry. And I know that he's not going to lead the way by going into that field and grabbing all her crap and not and he can't tell her to do it because she's the lieutenant. So this lady had just littered like the shiniest American possible. And he was just losing his mind because he was in this spot where he couldn't. He couldn't fix anything. Like he could have told me get in there and fucking get that shit out. But then I would have said, I didn't drop it. I'm not supposed to pick it up. There's mines everywhere I can he knew that she was coming. And so he was just in a rage. And he yells better as much as he could, but then got out of it. But that was some of like the the nonsense, right?
Jeff Felmet 22:25
Yeah. Did you guys go down first? Were you in the first group like in the January 6, or whatever? What did you guys go
Pete Turner 22:31
with the main bar that went down, I didn't take the train. I went down on the main body that went you know, down, we took a bus. And then we got in our vehicles once we got to where the train was because so for the audience,
Jeff Felmet 22:44
I took the frickin train. It took me six days, five days to get from Frankfurt, Germany or wherever we got on around Frankfurt to it. Two days are hungry, right? And then, and then we got the hungry, we stay there for couple days. And then we got in our gunner convoys and we drove off and we got to the border of on the Sava to that floating bridge. Yeah, we literally stayed there for three days, yes, in our Humvees. Because every time we were getting ready to go across the bridge, a dead cow would come down or something and they'd have to break it apart and put it back together. And then I remember when we finally got across, this was like the longest trip ever, so bad because I remember, I remember when I left I got on a bus. And I was back in Frankfurt in like eight hours, right? But it took me like seven days to get there. But I remember driving across in my first when we first went into Bosnia, and it was NFL playoffs on the Pittsburgh Steeler fan. They're playing like the Indianapolis Colts in the playoffs and listening to Armed Forces Radio. And I'm doing we had to get out and patrol around the vehicles and we just pulled over we want to cross the river. And we just pulled over because it was dark. And they didn't want Dr. We didn't really know where we were going. So we were all just pulled over in tomboy. And we were supposed to like basically walk around patrol around vehicles. So I'm listening on my Walkman listen to the football game. And I remember cars just driving and every time those cars would come up to this literally thought we were going to get attacked, right? We had no clue It was not like you guys are gonna run us over. They're gonna float. So I mean, once again, you got a 20 year old guy has no clue. And who's been promised and
Pete Turner 24:27
a lot of us were going to die. You remember, like when we got Yeah, most of you aren't going to come home, like speech. And I believe you know, I believe it. There's 1500 bazillion minds here. And, man, that whole time is crazy. Also, remember, we're getting ready to go down. I don't know if you were in this part of the trip or this when you're on the train. But one of the vehicles could only go 15 miles an hour for a point. And so we had the drive that fast. Like we never got out of
Jeff Felmet 25:00
No, I mean, like said we didn't seem to drive anywhere, any contrast. And then, and I still remember we finally rolled up where our camp was. It was like in the middle is a it was a farm field, like this farmer's field that they picked up. And there was nothing there. So we got there, there was nothing there was no nothing for us. And also, you know, our engineer guys are setting up concertina wire around. I just remember looking around, and there's hills everywhere. And I'm like we're in the middle of a bowl. Like we're in the bottom, like there's high points all around us. What the hell are we doing here? Like I'm an intelligence guy, not a not a planner. But we're in the wrong place in a mud. Oh my god, I got I got started pulling guard duty in the mud. So. So this farm field was just cut, you know, the soil was just meant to be nice, fertile soil, and we're running Humvees over it and everything. So it's just killing like the ground. And it was frozen when we got there. And as it started with Bob, they would just bring in bulldozers, and they would push the mud up to the side and make big berms around the edges of the camp. And I'm pulling guard duty, middle of the night, and we're walking and we're walking on top of these frozen berms. And I fell in to the frozen berm like the mud, and I went chest deep. So I'm in my Mickey Mouse, cold weather boots. And I'm holding my am 16 of above my head and I'm sitting there, nibble deep in his mud. And my partner's down on the bottom of the berm like what the fuck happened. I like I'm stuck. I didn't think I was going to get out Peter. I almost lost the boot. And I finally get out. I pull myself out of this thing. And I'm covered from head to toe and mud. They want to tell anybody to let me want to be embarrassed. So I go back and I'm trying to scam by the the stove and dry off. It was awful. Yeah, that was the scariest moment for me. hyperthermia? Well, you
Pete Turner 26:57
didn't want to get in trouble. Because you know, we got in trouble for dumbest things. It wasn't like actually anything was just for being idiots. Let's talk about actual do an actual spy stuff in a shop and birthday. Because that was always investing time, I'm going to set the stage for the audience. So we would go camping. And there's army units that go like to feel problems, they really dig in and they work on their combat skills, we really didn't have time to do that. And it wasn't really our main job. So we would drive there, we would set up our tents. And that's already a big enough operation. But you know, it just pretty quickly got everything set up. And then every individual office like Jeff would have heard his little sub team and they would have their own little small tent and you needed that you needed a tent and the stove because it was cold there. And then of course, the lowest ranking guys would always have to, you know, fire up the stove. So everybody else could be warm, and you know, whatever that stuff. And then we would have relaxed grooming standards when we were in town, meaning we could have a beard, but you couldn't have a beard in the tactical invite. So really, that was a dumb? I don't know, I don't know if you remember that. It was like you didn't have to shave in town. But you had to be clean shaven when you're on the camp. And those two things happened in the same day all the time. But we just camped outside in a forest in a shopping Burg. And then we just drove into town in like buses, like eight of us would pile out of a bus. Do you recall this stuff?
Jeff Felmet 28:23
Yea h, I mean, it was just Yeah, and we and we kind of stank because we've been out and you know, camping I remember one point, we got to go to like a gym somewhere and take a shower. I remember that. Yeah, I was just yeah. And, and we would, we basically would go into town and practice following people. And I joke around with people all the time, when I see people, you know, talking on their headsets or their you know, their Bluetooth Mike's and stuff. I say, we used to make such a big deal about people not noticing that we are talking to ourselves or listening to something or talking in microphones. And nowadays, I could put a beats headset on and walk around the street and talk to myself all day long. And no one would think twice about it. But it was just the idea that we was so busy. Yeah. secretive about that stuff.
Pete Turner 29:13
Yeah. And they did the thing we would then move on. So we didn't just do surveillance, we would do source meets. And so sure, because of who I wasn't where I was, I normally played some kind of role. And you guys but all meet with me, which was for me, it turned out great training. Because you know, it'd be like, yeah, Chief Underwood, or, you know, Sergeant, so and so these guys that actually had experience with show up and they would, you know, work me as a source. And now we get to see how they did it. It was awesome.
Jeff Felmet 29:40
Yeah, I think I remember meeting you at a bar one time or something. That sounds right. Coffee Shop.
Pete Turner 29:45
Oh, for sure. A coffee? Coffee? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we couldn't safely drink in front of them. And and you didn't know when someone would show up. But for sure. That's some of the things that we did. And so I would be like the mayor of a shop and brick and Jeff would show up and talk to me. Talk to me about that, Jeff, because you're trying to conduct spy operations in you know, in Germany. And granted, it's just practice, but they don't know that. Hey, this is Pete a Turner from lions rock productions. We create podcasts around here. And if you your brand, or your company want to figure out how to do a podcast, just talk to me, I'll give you the advice on the right gear. The best plan is show you how to take a podcast that makes sense for you that's sustainable, that scalable and fun. Hit me up at Pete at breakdown show. com Let me help I want to hear about it. In you know, in Germany, and granted, it's just practice, but they don't know that.
Jeff Felmet 30:41
I can only imagine what the people of the town thought they somebody had to talk to like the police department and everything else before we got there. Because we were definitely sticking out like sore thumbs. I can only imagine, you know, our bosses walking around looking at you know, watching them everything else we somebody had to have coordinated up beforehand, because there's no way we wouldn't have around suspicion. But yeah, it was, you know, sitting in McDonald's for an hour and a half waiting for somebody to walk by, you know, just just keeping your eyes on and walking down the same street back and forth. Just because, you know, we were part of one little exercise, but you know, it was happening over and over again while we were out there. And like how many meetings you had, you know, you probably met with 10 people. Oh my god.
Pete Turner 31:27
Yeah, all the old all day long. I drink you know, hot chocolate with cream all day long. Yeah.I even had a little allowance they gave me because I was going to be sitting there. They're like, you know, here's some extra money to buy food all day, you know? Yeah. Funny. Yeah.
Jeff Felmet 31:44
I did have a pretty neat experience with that. I remember we were we were walking it is just numbers. My team we must have been done for the day. And I don't know if you remember Nancy, Richard shoot her. Yeah, she you know, she spoke German. I remember one time we were walking in. Man, really old man came up and just started. He started crying and talking to us. And he wanted to give us hugs. And we're like, wow, you know, I could understand like half of what he was saying. And, and he pulled up his sleeve. And it had the, you know, the numbers tattooed on him or write us a prisoner of war concentration camp. And he was just telling us how he knew we were American boys. Like, once again, we stick out like sore throats. He knew we're Americans. And he just wanted to hug us. And he said that the the most beautiful sight he'd ever seen in his life was an American face when they came in freedom from the concentration camp, and you just want to give us all hugs and shake our hand. And I thought was pretty cool. That was that was nice. That made me made me proud of what I was doing and proud of, of who we were and who we were as a country and, you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah. And in Germany, Germany was going through a change when we were there. You know, it was in the early 90s. We weren't always welcome everywhere. There were a lot of people that were tired, us being there and, and ready for us to go home. But but then you hear people that really appreciated what we did and what we have done in the world. So
Pete Turner 33:09
yeah, it was a neat time to be there. Because the all of the healing for the most part was done. But there were still folks that couldn't heal, you know, like that guy there. I mean, just to think that you get a chance to interact with someone like that. You know, that's crazy. I mean, if you think about it this way, you know, we were there. 40-50 years later. So someone who was 10 at the time is only 60 years old, you know, just kind of cruising around, you know, wearing a golf shirt and a bad tracksuit. And so there were all kinds of folks that were there, you know, just walking around like that, that that was the time that we were there and and then also the Russians, nobody liked the Russians were there or the Turks.
Jeff Felmet 33:53
Yeah, yeah.
Pete Turner 33:55
So okay. In terms of practicing, did you feel like you got better when we go to a shopping Berg and go practice all the you know, the meeting, by the way, one of the places where we were designed, designated to meet that was actually it was spices, cafe, and then the word spices and in German looks like spice. When you see it? I'd be ever knew, like if that was on purpose to be kind of ironic and funny. But it was awesome. But did you give me this the bigger question want to ask is How did you get better at your job? Because we all got better, right? I mean, I talked to 1007 people in Bosnia, I got to watch all of you guys come and work with me as a source. So what what made the difference to get you from knucklehead AIT, I don't know what the hell I'm doing to someone who is proficient and deployable.
Jeff Felmet 34:52
You know what,
I mean, obviously, I think it was just just practice and just doing things over and over again, but a lot of it you know, I can say little, you know, little things with, with certain people I was working with, will help me get a little bit better. And I know that I honestly, maybe it's just that I didn't feel 100% comfortable or, or I wanted to be more of a perfectionist or what I was doing. But I, I probably never felt totally. Like I knew exactly what I was doing over there. And I ended up going later on over to Saudi Arabia, and I had a, I felt much better in that environment, doing what I was doing there. But when I was in, in Bosnia, I was pretty much I don't know what my I Warrant Officer didn't really stand up for me that much. I did a lot of guard duty KPDD latrines, latrine dirty, and then actually had to end up some standing by the truck a lot. So, so I didn't feel as though I got utilized to the best of my ability out there. Right. But, you know, some people I know, we're pretty much set free to do what they wanted and practice their craft where I said, I was, I was pretty much held on a leash, and I didn't like it. It was it was definitely didn't feel like I was being used to the best of my ability.
Pete Turner 36:24
And that wasn't necessarily reflection of you. That was reflection of your team boss, because our team is like our jobs to be out every day. Let's go. And, and that's how I was raised, you know?
Jeff Felmet 36:36
Yeah. Yeah. We had some pretty, pretty big disagreements and, and my, so my chief got taken from me at the last minute.
I was supposed to go down with
Chief Olmsted. And he ended up taking a tour in Turkey at the last moment. So end up with some, somebody who I'd never met before, showed up and took us down there. So yeah, we practiced and lead up and got ready to go with one guy and then all sudden, gone. Yeah.
Pete Turner 37:12
All right. Well, so my next unit, Nancy Richards was my boss, which was wonderful, because she knew that I had crap bosses in Germany, and she said, I'm going to take care of you. And she did. And I'm forever grateful to her for that. You on the other hand, went to Fort Gordon, where a lot of us went, and he got to deploy a lot more and really establish yourself as someone who could gather Intel. So something changed something stuck. talking a little bit about your time working at Gordon. Well,
Jeff Felmet 37:42
so So I had a chance to leave Germany and I'm glad I did or leave bosnia because I was in Bosnia when I left and when I came back on so I'm from Georgia, so came back home to Georgia and show up in Fort Gordon. And first day there, I see my old chief from from Heidelberg, jag Nanos down there. And I remember it had to been like, was it the first Thursday or the second Thursday, I was in in Fort Gordon. And the guy in commander comes out and says, we've been tasked to release this core in Bosnia will be gearing up will be gearing up to leave in January. And I was like, and this was like, October. Yeah. No, fucking way. I don't want to go. So, so gagner was putting together a team to go replace the guys over in Saudi and and the team we replaced is actually the guys that were they were there during the Khobar Towers bombing. So we were so the guys we replaced were, that's how close we were to that timeframe. You know, the the guys over there at the time, where were four there? So I said, Chief, you got it. Yeah, I can't. I can't go back to want to go back to that. And do it again. So so she put together a team, I think we took nine people with us, we took four, four of us with Riyadh and four or five of us went to Darren. And I got lucky I got to go to Riyadh. So I didn't have to go with the chief or the or the six or seven I guess he was I didn't have to go with either. Now my so I went to basically a separate little field off, it was me and linguists, and a couple more agents and went to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, had a great time, never put a uniform on the day, I was over there. grew my hair up a little facial hair on whatever I could. And I basically just drove around in my Jeep Cherokee and talk to a whole bunch of people, metal, metal, lot of people a lot of security people from, you know, saw the airport and all every, you know, American company that was over there we out there had their own basically their own people doing the same job we were doing just for their companies got together a lot of meetings at the embassy in their, in their cool. Faraday cage rooms that they had up there. So yeah, I mean,
Pete Turner 40:16
the faridan Yes. So okay. And this is exciting, because this is actual stuff. And, you know, you're doing spy work, you're going out trying to find things out. Largely unsupervised. You know, and whatever you had, it was more, I would assume more guidance than you have to do this. You have to do that. It was like, go out, cultivate something. And let's, let's start writing reports. Yeah,
Jeff Felmet 40:40
yeah. So I got there got to basically read a lot of reports and a lot of source meetings, a lot of source reports that, you know, once again, I don't know if anything I talked about ever turned into anything. You know, that was, we were really big on on bin Laden. That was because we were not far from his interview with the Peter Jennings. And he did that in view it right. You know, he said he was gonna kill all of us. We weren't far away from from that timeframe. So he was, he was definitely on our radar. I don't know if he was on anybody else's radar. But we were talking and one thing I always found funny is one of the airbase of south of Riyadh, they were building hard barracks at the time, and been logging construction was doing the, the building. And you know, I wrote that down like 100 times, like, why the hell are we letting him build? family or whatever. But, yeah, I just knew one day, one day, those barracks were just all blow up because they built the concrete with explosives in it.
Pete Turner 41:38
Yeah, you this way. And here's the thing is like, you know, someone like Jeff doesn't know what he doesn't know, he's just, he's out there. Literally, just at this level of work, his job is to go out, meet people interact with them, and tell them what he sees and hears. So you know, he is supposed to go the bin Laden companies building barracks that we're going to live in, is this a good idea? You know, maybe that gets up three layers? And like, yeah, yeah, that's fine. We don't care. You know, but Jeff doesn't know that. And, and, and it was your idea. No one's coming, Jeff. We want less about the barracks more about, you know, whatever. And, I mean, you have some questions you're supposed to answer. But largely, you're just trying to find anything out. And whether your Intel is good, it is part of the machine, it's someone else's job to sort of doing what you're doing. So how did you? How did you get into places like the embassy? How did you get to meet people at the airport, at the hospital? All of these places where you establish some network?
Jeff Felmet 42:35
Well, I'm not most of them were, were given to me by the ongoing team, you know, we were, you know, passed off. And, you know, you know, we had like, almost a, we had a two week overlay. And so during the first two weeks, you know, the guys that were there before me would drive me around and basically introduce me to everybody that they've been talking to, and, and once again, we weren't not, we were not super covert. I, I never said the word. We were a little bit more, you know, more kind of sneaky about who we were like, I don't think I use the word US Army. I don't think I use the word intelligence. But I was, you know, US government security, you know, that kind of thing. And we're, so they knew exactly what I was looking for. And, and mostly, we were just quite open about what we're, what we're, you know, interested in anything that might be harmful to us, anything you guys could think of. And, and, and part of the, the idea was, you know, we give some back to them, too. So that's one thing we talked about when we get to the embassy meetings, is we be given information to pass back down to make, you know, to make it a two way street. But, yeah, the embassy and you know, the other thing that was kind of neat about Saudi Arabia is there's, there's like, there was, well, back then this was what 97 there was. There's like three different missions going on there. There was our mission, which was continuation of Desert Storm, which had Patriot missile batteries, protecting Saudi Arabia. And that's, that's what we were supporting. And then there were there were other guys that were over there that were totally just was it OPM saying so operation program management, Saudi Arabia, National Guard, or whatever, they were just, they were there, they could do anything they wanted. They were, they just drove around the country all day long and did whatever they wanted. Where were the Patriot missile guys were all locked down and couldn't be anything that they would be they had their own Intel guys. So we'd interact with them. And we go back and forth. And we talk and get to the get to pass this around. But yeah, so a lot of the, you know, the meeting was was handouts, and then I meet my own I remember when we met some guys subdirectory one night that were that were Americans that were this this guy, this guy. This guy's whole job, new shit, American. And his whole job was to put satellite dishes and Avi systems in a Saudi Arabian princes, castles or palaces. And so we started talking to him, and he tell us stuff all day long. It was cool. Yeah, because, you know, one of our big concern was the Saudi, the Saudi kingdom, you know, because eventually, they would not like us anymore. And they would want us to leave. And we did. We wanted to keep tabs on that. So, yeah.
Pete Turner 45:22
So how long were you in Saudi doing all that collection? Six months? And then were you always intending on getting out of the army after that assignment? You know,
Jeff Felmet 45:35
I just kind of got to the point where I realized that if there was no regularity to my life, it was it was going to be Move, move, move all the time. Or, or deploy, deploy, deploy. So yeah, I kinda while I was there, I got to a point where I was done. Right,
Pete Turner 45:52
right. Let me go back to some of the stuff that you were doing so so you're in town. When I talk to people, I always often said I was just up front about it, right? because like you said, you can say you're with us security. But what the fuck does that mean? You know, they're already assuming that you're a spy. So you know.
Jeff Felmet 46:12
I don't know. I mean, yeah, we were basically told not to use certain certain terms. But yeah, I think I think the more you know, somebody, the more you talk to them. It's just kind of an unspoken rule as to who you are. Yeah, I think they know. Like you said, I don't think it was very secretive. They know exactly that I worked for, you know, the GO second Mr. To die in the hour. You know,
but yeah, they I think they do.
Pete Turner 46:38
Yeah, I sort of went with that. And I just realized that by being open and honest, like, hey, yeah, I'm here. I'm here gathering information, trying to keep everybody safe. So if you know about something, please let me know. I'm not really going to ask about that. I want to get to know you guys. You know, and so, yeah, I just had handled it straight on because, you know, I just didn't presume I mean, I didn't tell him what unit that was with but and we we all patches are shit was out everywhere, so that you can figure that part out. But yeah, it seems shocking to people to say it, but the reality was, is we weren't allowed to not say it.
Jeff Felmet 47:10
Yeah. I mean, they went as far as when it decided they made us carry two passports with us. So I had to have my, my brown diplomat one. And then I had my, my blue personal one. And they wanted us when we went out and about to pick our blue ones. And just kind of because we had to leave those IDs when we went into these different things. So they didn't want us to leave and our our government issued one, right? Yeah,
Pete Turner 47:36
yeah, it was sometimes some of us got diplomatic passports are different color server, different function. You're right. It's, you know, as soon as you think it's not a spy game, right? You know, like, those guys just talked to people at Rutgers realize that we had an allowance for cash to spend, we have the ability to, you know, to give people booze when no one else in the army. And also we had multiple passports. It's not Jason Bourne, but it's not all that different. You know, it's, it's, it's pretty close, ultimately. Okay, so when you look back at that time in, in Saudi and when you were getting to finally do what you got to do, and you're having fun, even though that fun was not enough to keep me in the army. What? What was your most proud moment? Like? What stood out to you like, man, actually, I actually can do this.
Jeff Felmet 48:26
You know what, I think a lot of it was like I said, a lot of the people I met in Saudi likes it. So it was definitely my, my favorite part of the intelligence game and just that what I got to do there, but but I think, actually got to give a briefing in the embassy. And and that was kind of cool. Because I'm standing up there, you know, guys from the company are there and they're there. You know, some people with some pretty high credentials are sitting in that in that room, and they asked me my opinion asked me for my information, I get to stand up and give it that was pretty cool. I think they actually listened to what I say. So
Pete Turner 49:13
what did you get absolutely wrong. What do you look back and be like, God, damn, I was dumb.
Jeff Felmet 49:20
Jeez, probably everything. Nah. I don't know, man. I don't know. I honestly don't know if I like said once again, I don't know what I knew. I don't know, whatever happened with anything I ever said. But, uh, what's a good question? I think about that. absolutely wrong.
Pete Turner 49:42
So what did you go on to become? Because obviously, you left the army. You wanted to stay in Georgia, where you're from?
Jeff Felmet 49:48
Yeah. So So I got out of the army. And I and I thought, you know, I went to college, actually. So, so while I was in Saudi Arabia applied for applied to college and actually took the three months, early out, they're supposed to get out in December, I got out in September. So I can start school and I fully intended to go to school for criminal justice. And I was looking at, you know, FBI, CIA, you know, that kind of thing. But life got in the way. It was expensive, you know, thousand dollar a month GI Bill, not enough to live on when when you got car payments, and rent and everything else. So, so I did a year of school for criminal justice. And then I, before I went in the army, I was, I was a volunteer firefighter. And I got back, I started, you know, volunteering again. And I ended up going to EMT, school paramedic school and became a firefighter. So I've been doing that for 20 years now. Wow.
Pete Turner 50:44
And when you look back at that time, would you've taken a different path? Like, would you have just started with the fire thing earlier? Or do you really treasure your time in the army? I mean, relationships aside, I mean, I keep touch with so many of you guys. I know. I wouldn't trade that for anything. And if anything, I would tell my I would tell my backbend self to go out even more do even more stuff in Germany because the time was short, we didn't know. Right? And there was so much to do still.
Jeff Felmet 51:12
Yeah, you know what I, I would not give up my time in the military, or anything in the world. I think it helped me grow up. It helped me become a responsible young man instead of a punk kid. I think everybody should do it. Honestly, I wish we were one of these countries that that made everybody go and serve their country for a couple years. I sometimes I think maybe I would have reenlisted. done some more. I don't know. But I don't know where things would have gone differently. I have friends that started this career that I'm working with right now that are eligible to retire from here right now. Right? Could be, you know, instead, so no, I wouldn't change anything that for for the world, I met a lot of interesting people that to be a lot of cool things. Talk about it on your show. So it's, it's fun. I said, I wouldn't, I wouldn't change anything. I wish I'd had a little bit more freedom in, in, in the job I was doing and like I said, Bosnia and stuff. But other than that, I had a great time.
Pete Turner 52:17
So Jeff's career, if you could probably can't do the math only, like Jeff and I can't just started in December, and I started in March. So again, like Jeff and I are time overlapped. And we I think at the time, we were aware of each other, but really had no reason to interact. Because he just you're in such a different point in your career. At that point. It's like an early, early person to three months later, you just totally different, you know, passing but he left bosnia mid deployment, which is pretty sweet, especially for guy that didn't have a great job. And I was able to deploy just ahead of the main body because we all went back and like in October, and I had to, I had or maybe no, very, they came back in November. So but I had to come back to start out processing and you know, back then you got a month out process no matter what. And so, you know, I didn't say anything, I'm on a remote camp, I don't want to go back to the main camp because they always stuck with me. And so basically, I let the time run out. And I'm like, all right, well, I'm here, I've gotta go home. You know, because it's not my job to keep track of that stuff. It's their job. I know what I'm supposed to leave. And First Sergeant ON lost his mind. He's like, no, you're redeployment the main body? And I'm like, No, I'm not. I have to go back to our process. You know, so I got to leave, like two weeks early. I didn't have to do all the bullshit, you know, all that stuff. And for whatever reason, and I don't know why I mean, I'm positive. We were guilty of, you know, our attitude and everything. But guys, like you and I were not looked upon. Despite the fact that I want every single board I sat in front of always had 300 PT always shot expert. You know, it didn't matter what we did, we were always going to have a negative impression sewn at us. What do you think it was, man?
Jeff Felmet 54:10
You know, what I think part of the problem is we were in we were low ranking, guys that were very smart. I mean, you know, some of us, I didn't live in a lot of us had college degrees already a lot of us had, you know, lives before they had, you know, jobs and even careers and, and for some reason, ended up joining the army, you know, and I think our MLS was just just an odd MLS, you know, we had to have the high scores, you know, the high, you know, scores and stuff. And, and it's just, I think we're in a, I think we're different type of people in the environment. And I think it's just we didn't always mix well, you know, I mean, we're as educated and as smart as the officers in our NR units that didn't get the respect for it, you know?
Pete Turner 55:04
Yeah, I remember. And we'll close this thing up here pretty quick. I remember, like saying, I want to play softball, you know, and I asked around, like, which one of you sergeants wants to run this softball team? And they are all you know, because we're all a bunch of dorks. For the most part of them. There were a few of us that were athletes, but for the most part, there were very few and I'm like, come on, it's fun. We should go play softball and get get into the rec league thing, and nobody would do it. And and I kept getting told that I didn't take initiative, even though I was doing correspondence courses and, you know, going to ports I didn't have to go to and I needed to show some leadership thing. So Michael, fuck it up. I know how to run a team. I've done it in civilian world. I'll put a team together and Jeff was awesome. I said, Jeff, you're playing softball with us. Jeff would go out of his way to drive up leave work early. And I said the only rule is you have to have a giant Levi Garrett cha in your jaw when you play.
Jeff Felmet 55:57
That was a that was a that was a wrap. From Heidelberg to Darmstadt of at least it was it? 45 minutes an hour. Yeah, at least that
Pete Turner 56:05
Yeah.
Jeff Felmet 56:06
Yeah. Jonathan. I remember I had my wisdom teeth pulled out. And I played like, the next day. Having a chew in my mouth with the packing in my living. I didn't care. I still play softball. Actually, I play every Tuesday night.
Pete Turner 56:23
Do you really? Where do you play on the field?
Jeff Felmet 56:25
Yeah. Well, I try not to play third base anymore, because I know I'm just too slow. But I have played a couple games. But usually I'm pitching. Catching a plane first.
Pete Turner 56:36
Nice.
Unknown Speaker 56:39
So far,
Pete Turner 56:39
we had a great time playing softball. We weren't terribly good. Did you play football with us as well?
Jeff Felmet 56:45
Yeah, yeah, I played flag football there actually played, I played softball in Saudi Arabia, I got hooked up with a marine from the US Embassy. And he played on just a local team as with a bunch of doctors and people that work for the hospital. So that's pretty cool. I used it as a meetings and get to go and play softball, and I played, played on a team. That's pretty cool.
Pete Turner 57:11
Nice, man. Well, hey, listen, I appreciate you coming on. I know, I always enjoy catching up with you guys. And I worry that the, you know, like the people listening, my friends and all those guys, they're like, Ah, you know, we don't want to hear that crap. But it turns out, that's always wrong. Like they always like, it's great to hear you guys chat. And it's like sitting in on a conversation. Plus, we really get to talk about spy stuff. I mean, we really did get to learn about dead drops, you know, we really did get to learn about, you know, all these different things like surveillance, we we did do that. You know, when we went to the schoolhouse, I think my class was the last class to have as much surveillance as they taught me, buddy. And within a year, it was all gone, you know. So we've gone around government cars with radios in our ears and go, you know, and then talking art is a code that we all talk. It's not classified, but it's sensitive. But we use code words so that we could literally talk out in front of people and they wouldn't know what we were saying. But they would know we were saying weird shit. So we really did get to go do this. It's not an imaginary thing. And sometimes, Jeff, I just it blows my mind that we got to go be spies in Germany. Oh, yeah.
Jeff Felmet 58:16
It sometimes. Sometimes it seems like a lifetime ago. But then when we sit here and talk to you like was just yesterday?
Pete Turner 58:22
Yeah, for sure. Well, listen, man, I appreciate you coming on. Thanks for hanging out. You actually work as a fire marshal for in Georgia and also have your own consulting business. So anybody in Georgia who wants to get some fire equities my man Jeff.
Jeff Felmet 58:38
Yeah, sure. That's That's great. First Response at
Transcribed by https://otter.ai