Pete A Turner - Accounting for Your Partner's Well Being to Be Relevant

​Pete A Turner - Accounting for Your Partner's Well Being to Be Relevant - Our guest host for this episode is Bill Mankins of Mankins research. Bill has wanted to grab Pete A Turner for a show and get into his background for quite a while. Bill as many of you know is a field operator of the first order and is working on the last bits of his DOUBLE PHD!!! defense. 
 Bill gets Pete to opine on his work, what projects he'd like to take on next...and how the Ground Truth impacts his thinking.  
#combat #trust #culture #podcast #episode #bigproblems #hardwork #fieldwork #spyvsspy #collectors #storytellers #BIDS #GroundTruth
Haiku
Affect leads effect
I am an illustrator
Trust is my hammer
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Pete A Turner
Bill Mankins
​Dr. Brian R Price​

Transcription

Jon Leon Guerrero  0:00  
Hey, this is john Leon Guerrero. Our guest today is Pete. Actually, I suppose I could count as the guest, our friend Bill Mankins, who's been on the show multiple times and previously discussed his plan to build Mankins research, and Megan's University, where he plans to offer special ops related curricula. That means a student will learn practical operational skills like flying a helicopter or a small plane, foreign languages, ballistics logistics, field, medical procedure, stuff like that. But this time bill turns the tables and ask the questions of old Pedro. ​

Jon Leon Guerrero  0:00  
Hey, this is john Leon Guerrero. Our guest today is Pete. Actually, I suppose I could count as the guest, our friend Bill Mankins, who's been on the show multiple times and previously discussed his plan to build Mankins research, and Megan's University, where he plans to offer special ops related curricula. That means a student will learn practical operational skills like flying a helicopter or a small plane, foreign languages, ballistics logistics, field, medical procedure, stuff like that. But this time bill turns the tables and ask the questions of old Pedro. I haven't heard it. But bill or Manny, as Pete likes to call him is a trained interrogator. So we'll see where it goes. It'll be fun. Now, since you listen to the breaking down show you care about reaching optimal performance and doing work and making sacrifices and we all like to get the most out of our efforts in every endeavor. But I'm going to ask you to do two things to help everyone else around you. First thing is that you go out and support the charities you care about, or that are making a difference that's near and dear to you. donate some money, volunteer your time help out. We support a few different charities primarily save the brave, and you can see what they do and throw a few bucks at them if you'd like at save the brave.org we also support the seal veterans foundation and you can read about what they do and support them at seal veterans foundation. org. Now, you probably heard that Pete is doing the core nado seal Memorial swim coming up on Saturday, September 21 to benefit the families of Naval Special Warfare operators who have made the ultimate sacrifice to defend our freedom. And they deserve all of our support. If you're in the San Diego area, you can also go check out Pete on September 21. That is the core nado seal Memorial swim, and it'll be fun. So second thing I'm going to ask you to do is even easier, support the break it down show by giving us a simple five star rating and a show review. Like these guys are my people. That's all pretty simple, huh? And will appreciate you like crazy. Hey, speaking of crazy, have I got a couple of chaps for you. Here's bill Mankins and his conversation with our own Pete Turner.

Joel Manzer  2:14  
lions rock productions.

Unknown Speaker  2:19  
This is Jay Mohr and this is Jordan. Dexter from the naked

Unknown Speaker  2:24  
Sebastian youngsters, Rick Marana Stewart

Unknown Speaker  2:25  
Copa, this is Mickey lapses. And this is a skunk Baxter.

Unknown Speaker  2:29  
Gabby Reese is Rob belly. This is Johnny and gray.

Pete Turner  2:31  
And this is Pete a Turner. Hey, this is PA Turner. And we're getting ground truthy on the breakdown show.

Niko Leon Guerrero  2:42  
And now the breakdown show with john Leon Guerrero and Pete a Turner.

Bill Mankins  2:48  
Everybody, we're here today, I'm getting a chance to interview my buddy Pete. My name is Bill Mankins. I've been on the show a couple of times, Pete and I go way back. And I'm really looking forward to actually asking him a couple of things that I don't know about him. I don't know what he thinks, and a few things that I do know what he thinks. But I want to know why think so here we go. It's gonna be a fun, fun show.

Pete Turner  3:10  
Yeah, I agree. I'm looking forward to it. I can't wait to every time we talk, man. It's always a fascinating and interesting conversation. So have added, I'm ready.

Bill Mankins  3:18  
You're in the interrogation seat. So here we go. A couple things. So Intel, what's your background? Why? What brought in the Intel just it worked out that way,

Pete Turner  3:28  
I would never had a plan to join the military, you know, just was a thing that was born out of not getting a job coming out of college, I was going to be a TV radio guy. And as I tried to find a job in TV and radio, it was just a bad time to do it in the early 90s. And quite honestly, it was a time when the industry was moving away from having white dudes were bad sports jackets, you know, the industry is changing. And that's not a commentary on anything other than just it was good. We needed some diversity in those roles. And so they're just there weren't enough jobs for anybody. So I had to do something. And so instead of doing nothing I got into the military, because they would give me a chance to learn some skills.

Unknown Speaker  4:07  
It's funny, I didn't realize that TV radio or something that even before the military you were interested in.

Pete Turner  4:12  
Yeah, that was that was a whole field of study TV, radio, mass communication. That's my undergrad degree.

Unknown Speaker  4:18  
You know, it's funny, man, I'm all these years I've known you, I did not know that. It's kind of surprising to me, actually. And here you are, after all this, like now you're getting you know, you're not getting back into it. You've gotten back into it now, you know, for for over a decade. So yeah, the circle back around.

Pete Turner  4:35  
Yeah, it's funny, you know, I never thought I would be in TV, radio, but it was something that I was always interested in. Because, you know, it was sort of a failed thing. And I really did enjoy it. I got into it for the right reasons. I just couldn't crack the nut on how to actually make it happen. And so now that it is happening, I abused my degree all the time. And what a shocker. I'm just shocked by about that as you are. Yeah, well, it's let me just before we lot of this stuff, I want to harp in on that a little bit. So you did that in the 90s. This is pre major internet for all intensive purposes, right. And every I mean, I graduated high school in 95. And I remember high net was like the first email service that that we could use my freshman year college. So podcasting and what you're doing now and then medium, I guess you could say that you're using How was any of your TV and radio that you training and stuff, you know, did was this a whole, you know, it was 75% of what you talked about and learn they're like applicable now. or suspend a, basically a total revamp and a new learning curve, you know, it applied directly been I knew how to communicate at a theoretical level, you know, and I, I understood the principles of how, how to mass communicate, and how to measure that all of those things applied to what I did, you know, and then you think about being a reporter, your job is to go out and find a story. And that was an area where I spent a lot of time in college, like, I don't want to be someone, I'm not afraid to go out and go get a story. So I would make it up myself. I would find something interesting that in a sales job combined is what the kind of spy I am is a news reporter. You know,

Unknown Speaker  6:19  
Yeah, I do. It's kind of funny how those two worlds most people don't realize how much they overlap. But they do. Yeah. storytelling. Hmm. So let's, let's talk about that a little bit. And then we're going to delve back into to the Intel part. So you know, everybody's got their thing, whether it's the movies, they like to watch the TV shows, I mean, I don't know if it's the right way to think about it most accurate, but it's how I thinking about at the moment, which is, you know, there's people like horror, there's people like drama people like romance people, like you know, more action figures, what kind of story are you attracted to in the given moment, right, that is what you want to observe or hear get taken away by. But when you're a storyteller, there's probably in the same way, or movie director or any other medium kinds of stuff, stories that maybe tend to fall into a category. So, you know, on the Intel side, there's certain stories that need to be told and explored and fleshed out, but just overall, and then what you're doing now, and kind of where you think you might be going in the future is there, for lack of a better word, I'll say genre or a type of story that you're more interested in telling or researching than a different type of story, or any that you are clearly not interested in telling or Gord about.

Pete Turner  7:29  
Hey, this is Pete real quick, I just want to let you guys know, we are proud to announce our official support of save the brave, a certified nonprofit 501 c three, with a charter of helping veterans with post traumatic stress, here's how you can help go to save the brave, calm, click on the link on the website. And my recommendation is this subscribe, give them 20 bucks a month, you've got subscriptions you can turn off right now that you're not using that are $20 a month, swap that out, give involved, let's help these folks out.

Bill Mankins  7:58  
Or any that you are clearly not interested in telling or Gordon,

Pete Turner  8:02  
if it's in terms of what I do now, I am looking for things that forced me to be uncomfortable, mentally, and emotionally. You know, those guys spiritually, you know, physically Yeah, how do I get into a conversation that forces me to adapt to an uncomfortable, even if it's not my reality, and you you and I know about experiencing other realities. When I experienced those things, I grow tremendously. And so that's really the story like where's the growth? I know now, in terms of the show, I know now that my nose works, I've developed it, I can find a story that makes sense, which is really true for what I did with the commander to I knew I knew the commanders main tasks, I can tell you with any commander in the field wants to do right now, I already know their mission, even though I don't know who I'm even talking about or where they're at. I still know what their mission is. Because I have a nose for that. And so I've got that same kind of thing, not with the same level of clarity, because the bad world's a whole different place. It's a lot more complex, but I know what the audience likes, because the audience has me

Unknown Speaker  9:07  
knowing the right story and knowing the right story, the questions to ask, I think, really, and when you're a storyteller, you can't be into some way unless you're a researcher too. And that falls in line, you know, with both of our backgrounds. And when you're talking about the commander, and you might not know him, but you thinking about the story to tell and what they might need to know. Question for you about needing to know, do you think that part of your skill is just in general with question asking, that may be the different and broader and we give an example of a totally different field, which is business, right? So you hear people will look at a conventional question, the standard cliche, one is with McDonald's, you know, what business are you in? And people are thinking about it in a certain way? And then somebody comes along who thinks unconventional and says, No, no, no, we're not in that restaurant business. We're in the real estate business or whatever else, or people who think they're in the sports business. And I know I'm in the entertainment business, meaning they have a greater capacity to understand the context and to contextualize what they're in. And that person tends to be rather rare because it's much easier to well think conventionally, that's what everybody else does. And so when you can reframe what you're doing, or ask the right questions to encourage said leader, or boss, or group or enterprise to reframe what they're doing and think, bigger and more strategically. I mean, I think that's what you do, man, you're just a rare bird in that way.

Pete Turner  10:40  
Yeah, you know, there's a lot to be said, for what you're talking about, I guess the best way to characterize this without getting too esoteric or anything is, my job is to go out and find out the unknown unknowns. So if I go out, and I always try to build a reading list when I'm doing spy stuff, so I'm always trying to make sure that the Intel shop the operations, all of the operations people, anybody on staff, has access. And I'm checking that they're actually reading the reports, because everybody gets overwhelmed with things to read, like your email box fills up. Like as you're sitting there, it's like flying, blink, blink. So you have to stand out. And that's sort of what I do with the podcast. But in terms of the combat world, I build a reading list. And then one of my T's a business term, what am I KPIs is when I go out on the patrol with I don't know, a combat unit. And when I come back, and the me my report, no, like, that is not what happened, then I know, I've done my job. I guess I should explain that to the audience. I experienced the different reality than that that unit did because I'm going to use this example when I host Yes, I listened to the guest. But I'm listening for things, not two things. So I'm not listening to the person. Yes, I hear the word they say. But I'm listening for specific areas where I can now open up truth, fat, if you're not listening, you just hear talking and just skims across the surface. So I'm listening for certain areas where I can go, bam, right there. I now know which 15 questions I need to ask. And I'm highly prepared for these moments. So if it's a farmer talking about poppies, I know the 10 questions I need to ask to get better information than anybody else. And I'll say this boldly. But it's true. Anybody in that entire province, I can now outperform all of them combined. Because of the questions because of the questions. Yeah, the questions are, because I've listened for the moment to ask the right questions. So yeah, it's one thing to ask like, Hey, where are the bombs? I actually could find out where the bombs are. Because I don't say Where are the bombs? I listened for the thing. 15 things before that. Yeah, and I go, this guy might and he may not know what the bombs are. But now I can go right now I can work this guy for threat. I can work this guy for farming issues. I can work this guy for money issues. And I've got a question set for any of those things. So when I do I've tried to explain this in the past, maybe some make sense to you. But I reverse conversation, like I reverse reverse plan my conversation. So if my question is ultimately where the bombs what's the question before that? Yeah, exactly. What's the question before that? And what's the question before, and you work all the way out down this very natural path? And so what I literally say to someone, hey, I'm going to ask a bunch of questions. If I ask you something you don't want to answer. Let me know. Well, my job is now to make sure I every question I ask is super simple. And they're like, yeah, that's no big deal. I'll tell you that. I'll tell you that I'll tell and then I can press them within that and say, really no shit, come on. What's the real answer? And when that person I'm talking to? Does the international side, he looks over their shoulder and they go, all right, I'll tell you what. Now I know, I'm in a special place that nobody else can get to.

Unknown Speaker  13:47  
Yeah, so rapport. Yeah, it's funny. It's one of those things, again, different fields have, it could be sales and business, it could be in our field of Intel, it's affected Gilead, the same thing. Whether you're selling yourself, you're selling an idea, you're selling the vision, you're selling, the reason why they need to tell you the truth. That's right. It's funny, because you've been through various training schools. Same with myself, and in my personal experience, and I want to hear your thoughts. A lot of times that rapport building is something that's kind of talked about in theory, and then people gloss over it, because it just seems kind of like, yeah, it's sort of the soft man's game or that it was. But I mean, to me, you know, what you've done like the the capacity to develop that relationship with people and make people who normally would not trust you to trust you, is like coin of the realm. Yeah. And the textbook method for how to do that is not necessarily Well, it's not something just everybody can do. It's not something that's easily trainable, because there's some degree of personality and just natural, actually caring, that can't really be faked. And I mean, I don't know if you think this way, but in my personal opinion, is most of the end, you're obviously in this group, man. But most of the best Intel collectors that I know, are people who actually really care, they're in that question of willing to go ask questions and develop that uncomfortable relationship, and try to understand that other person. And so I'm curious, I mean, you've taught in the school house, right, you have you? Um, I don't know if our listeners know that about you. It's another one of those things by your background. But, you know, I mean, you've taught the course. Yeah. And how much of that report building as a teacher even watching students, you know, how much of that do you think is actually the percent right, that is trainable and not trainable? How much of that is personality based versus coachable? And same thing in sales sales? Right? And you know, in the same way,

Pete Turner  15:41  
it's a tough question to know that. So I would say this first off, there, I've never seen a training manual that gives you an idea of what rapport looks like, and how to reliably and repeatedly, you know, I've not seen an institutional program of rapport building, that's what I'm going to say. So that's always on the agent, you know, of collection, not saying specialist, just the person who's gathering that information to figure that out, you can be given some ideas. But the bottom line is, is nobody knows how to do that. At an organizational level, and that's a problem. Because it's, it's an exceptionally desirable outcome, to be able to say, I can create a relationship that is founded in, I would say, before you can ever get the trust. And I know a lot about trust, I spent a lot of time trying to understand it. And Robin Creek also is a great resource for this. He's been on the show a couple times, he's an FBI counterintelligence agent. And both of us understand that if you lead with trust and respect, and you have rapport ahead of that, you actually will get to trust sooner than you think. But if you don't lead with those things, and you don't test for trust, you don't have trust, like trust is is earned. And it's earned. The coin of the realm, again, is that respect, and that rapport and so on, you had reporters not let's talk about your kids for five minutes, I won't tell you anything about me. And then I'm going to take my commander wants that's not rapport, not in any part of the world. So you have to get over and rapport does not really involve ego. And that breaks, you know, our peers hearts. No, no, no, you don't understand, I understand plenty, this is does not involve your ego at all, this is about them. And they don't have to give you trust. So it's not an easy thing to explain or describe. But for sure, I have a huge advantage in that I got to watch my peers, as an instructor, I got to watch them struggle with with realities of what you can and can't ask someone to do in a conflict zone, because they're not equipped to give you everything you want. It's dangerous for them. And until you can accept that you don't matter in terms of their daily well being, then you're irrelevant on the battlefield. Honestly, like, that's really what it comes down to. Yeah, how much do you think it's funny the rapport building part of that, we talked about it in terms of the asset you're trying to develop, but also, to us, as you said this before with the commander, like the home team, because for what you're doing and things, things that both of us have done your is if you're an A and intelligence advisor, you're in this odd position of having to have no command authority. Yeah, and you're effectively have you're the in between you are the You are the literally go between person who has developed poor rapport with the native knowledge of the native and report with the unit report the you know, to get them to both sides to trust you, in order to do this translation of, of reality, that is able to be beneficial, because we already talked about a little rapport building and the manuals, not there, how much rapport building is actually, time spent with report with the unit report with the commander, report with the home team, over 50% of my time, I designated for working with the home team, because they weren't supposed to get what I do. And I have a lot of bad news that I bring in. And if I don't account for the staff, they'll kill me. If I don't have relevance with the commander, they'll kill me. If I don't win the confidence of my immediate military partner, whoever, like some captain, you know, that person will kill me. So it's much more dangerous on that side of things. And every day, they're going out and they're making mistakes. So most of my impact is in getting the unit to stop with their Miss orientation, with their myopic way of looking at things with a lack of cultural understanding, like I can do so much more good for them in that realm than anything else. Really, it's crazy to think of that. But it's just remains true that I have to always focus on the military side, because they're the ones making the most mistakes and have the least amount of relevance on people staying alive. The battlefield means nothing to the locals, because they're worried about being awake the next day, or their kids being safe.

Unknown Speaker  20:04  
Yeah. Do you think with the way that rapport works with the commanders and that unit, what let me back up even so for the sake of the audience, it sounds like, and to give you an idea of what this is like, because there really isn't anything that I can think of in civilian world, like this particular kind of position. But it almost be like a consultant. So companies hire consultants to come in and basically advise them on what to do and come up with a system or plan or to test various things and tell them how to tweak and six sigma is a perfect example any other kind of things. But the difference is the company itself, hires the consultant. And therefore, it's already said, we see there's value in here and there doesn't need to be a sale, or convincing. But this would be like somebody outside the company hired, the consultant told them to come over to your company. And then you're there trying to convince both the company and the Pete involved there that you actually have value added and can contribute to what they're doing. And I think that's a very, I mean, I can't think of another and maybe you can't, I don't know, Pete, you work with the Silicon Valley, folks, as well. But, you know, the most consulting does not work that way.

Pete Turner  21:15  
It definitely does not know, it definitely doesn't. And it becomes a real problem, because the ability to integrate is expensive, if I'm integrating with the customer, more than I'm integrating with the problem. And it's it just, you know, it remains to be true that that is where the bulk of my work is if I can get you to be more efficient as an organization, through like everybody says, and you know, about this cultural stuff, like, culture just doesn't tolerate design, oh, our culture is this is it. I mean, I'll go for free right now. And I'll go see if I can find it, you know, because it because if it's not what you think it is, guess what it is, it's really, it's way more expensive than I would be at $300 an hour overnight, it's going to be I mean, you could spend a million dollars, and I could come back and give you eight, no problem at all, you know, and I don't need a million dollars to do this. But just for numbers, I'm positive, I can return eight to one on what I cost. And here's the thing with all of this stuff, whether it's in business or a commander, and this is what commanders taught me. I don't need you to solve my problems, I need you to illustrate them. I have the resources and the know how to solve my problems better than you ever could. And so I would refuse to provide answers to my commanders. But I would provide them ground truth, because that was infinitely more valuable, until they begged me like what do you think we should do? And I'm like, I can't outdo the staff. I'm glad to be part of the staff contribute. But I am not the commander, you know, and the most the commanders got it too. Like I absolve you of all that. I want to know what you think specifically. And then you move to a higher level, because now I'm not just a consultant, I don't know, I'm this this hybrid consultants, slash expert of sorts, if that makes sense.

Unknown Speaker  22:59  
It is, I mean, it's you're hearing end up being a framer of reality. Yeah. Understanding. And again, we've talked about this before another podcast, but adding it color or adding dimension to, to understanding Yeah, it's a big deal. I think that's one of the beauties of the storytelling to tie that back into. Yeah. Do you think that there's, you know, now with what you're doing, when you talked about the illustrator with the commander's Is there anything you know, in terms of the medium I'm is where I'm going with this, the podcast, the documentary, the podcast, it's just audio, the podcast, that's the YouTube, is there a way that you think tends to be better for telling certain types of stories or dealing with certain clients than than others,

Pete Turner  23:45  
one of my favorite things to do when I go to a new unit, if someone gave me a sack of money and says, help me out with my unit right now or or company, is I would go to their planning meeting, and I would see how they communicate the army. We love PowerPoint slides, and I would look at them, and I would see the what it's like a Terminator. And I would look and see, okay, how are they counting for the human dimension here, I see them going out there conducting medical operations to give shots, and, you know, vaccines and all these kind of things. But I don't see them ever going back to this area, I see them making assumptions about their impact, right. And you know, I'm really big on the effect over the effect, I see all kinds of effect. But I see no effect. This goes back to not listening to someone but listening for something. So I'm listening, and I'm looking for emotion. And so if I need to convey that in a video, or if I need to convey that in written word or whatever, then yeah, then I pull up my multimedia guide, and I try to do it, you know, there's certain, and I'm not a master of this, you know, it'd be great to have someone who's really a great artist, improve what I'm doing and give me the, you know, because it's people that know, like this color, not discuss color of pink, but this specific Pantone number creates this, like people that no bad stuff. So yeah, I would want to have those kind of tools at my my discretion. So mostly what I do, because I'm more of a Salesman than anything else is I talk and I say, these are the things that I see. How do you all want to make this decision? And I just asked questions, and I test for reactions. And I test for trust. And I tried to exchange trust, wherever I can. It's one thing to give it. But can I get it back? And so as I get that trust back, I know, I'm creating some emotional bonds. And I try to find the best medium for that, because being a multimedia person gives you some skill, but you do have, you know, for me, the spoken word, face to face communication is my most emotive way to communicate that I found.

Unknown Speaker  25:46  
Yeah, yeah, I agree. Definitely. How would it be different? So I'm going to say two things, and then we'll hit them. One on North Korea, China,

Unknown Speaker  25:55  
and Iran,

Unknown Speaker  25:56  
will come to that in a second. So what a lot of times, here's where I'm going with a lot of times people said, Oh, yeah, there's the group that, you know, counterinsurgency stuff, all this like dealing with indigenous people in really remote places that are totally different cultures than ours from like, Bible times. Right? The standard cliche, yeah. And we're not doing those things again. So all this stuff, you're talking about irrelevant. So it's a counter to that to say, but how is this human dimension important in a conventional war in with North Korea? How's it kind of mentioned important in a potential war with China? Or an Iran? That's one aspect? Because it's how do you do your sales in this human stuff? And how is it important? And then the second one is on the business side, or any consulting you might do? How is what you do? most relevant to that? So we're going to tie this thing that people you know, it's easy, in my view, for people who particularly were super operational in the the GY and the post 911. world. To have this, I don't say get relegated but get put into a position where they are viewed as being Oh, that was that thing we did, like people did with Vietnam. Now we don't do that stuff. And so all this stuff, we're talking about irrelevant? I totally reject it. I know you do, too. So it's a way for our listeners to understand, okay, how is this relevant to the projected new stuff with state on state, conventional and in a business environment with potential people who might be hiring you? That is it? 

Pete Turner  27:31  
That's a lot?

Bill Mankins  27:33  
Well, it's two questions. So just hit hit hit one on one I go. One at a time, so

Pete Turner  27:37  
I can get a hold of it here. Sure.

Unknown Speaker  27:41  
State on state. Okay. How is the human dimension? dealing with this, this human connection, human persuasion, your art? How is this applicable to the United States having intelligence advisors working with a North Korean War?

Pete Turner  28:00  
Yeah, so even in a conventional war, at some point, it stops, right. And then something comes after that. And, you know, I'm big on transition operations. So whatever that thing is, if it's not coin, it's nation building, let's just put it in the big nation building bucket. That means at some point, somebody who's Korean has to believe in a system that's replaced the old system. And if you aren't able to, and this does not matter what people say about tanks and everything else, the civil population is the center of gravity, if you cannot influence them, and it doesn't mean that you have to win hearts and minds for you. It has to means you have to create hearts and minds for the establishment for the nation building target. So if it's North Koreans, they don't know this spec, look at our spectrum of racism. And what reality is in terms of how races interact like those, those things are wholly out of whack. I'm not saying there's not a racial problem, but the specter is much bigger than the problem. And the same thing would apply in North Korea. So if you can't work with some cultural acuity, with some proven institutional style, trust building skills, you cannot reliably create the outcome that you want to create. So great, you smash their tank division, by the way, North Korea has no petrol, like they have no ability to move their tanks anyhow. So you, you beat up on a foe that is never going to fight you in that fashion, effectively, they're going to fight you in another way. And here's the thing, here's the illustration for that. I've been in the headquarters in Baghdad, the whole shebang, all of Iraq. And I've watched, you know, billions of dollars of equipment and college degrees come to a grinding halt over munitions that we would think were trash garbage, not even could even get 50 bucks for and watch it grind in a tire army to a stop, go, why do we deal with this old Korean Arab shell, right? So I cannot maneuver all that, with my ability to deal with people and to get people to do certain things to give a commander, the tools to create those same effects. Doesn't matter how many people you kill. And matter if you want to leave, and you want to leave in a way that makes some sense. You have to stay for a while and you have to establish things like a fire department, a police department that people will actually call, you know, a way to actually safely move money. So you're not paying half the money you have to get you'll have to pay half of your money to get that money. Like you can just use it through a bank those things. How about electricity? conventional war does not account for getting people electricity. I'm not saying that we have to pay for it. But if you don't account for those things, there will be no stability. So you may as well not go.

Bill Mankins  30:54  
You've heard all the hubbub recently. I mean, everyone's sort of in that world of defense, talking about, you know, the mega city war and the underground subway systems and just underground bunker fighting and this kind of stuff. subterranean totally get it? I'm certainly not knocking at all that stuff is real. Yeah. I'm curious what you think I would posit that the more people the actual more important the human dimension actually is. And there's for whatever reason, I've never quite understand a seemingly a belief that if you go to mega city operations, like this human dimension somehow reduces. And, and it becomes more Well, let's return to mechanistic. I don't mean mechanistic, isn't terms of tanks, a mechanistic in terms of almost like mathematical certainty of if x then y and do this thing that's very procedural, mechanical, and then we get victory, as opposed to, oh, my God, the conversation, that complexity just got so much bigger, and they so much bigger, not just because of the infrastructure, but even more so because of the humans that are involved and the complexity of the humans that are there. And they inter city divisions of people and ethnic neighborhoods and war factions that are basically within the urban city environment. So I'm curious if you've, you know, in your conversations, either with the word college people or anybody else have this issue of the urban and the underground, and how the human dimensions looked at. And if you think you've got anything to add to that, or for different,

Pete Turner  32:36  
I mean, I've got quite a bit to say about that. And we didn't get into the corporate part of it, which I'm glad to do. But to get into this part of it. JOHN Spencer is one he's a retired major, he works the modern war Institute, he's been on the show several times, the three of us should probably do a show about this, because he's a leading voice in this mega city urban conflict. And as he states and until someone improves, otherwise, this remains true as well. We are becoming a more urbanized planet. Look at Houston, Houston, doesn't get less urban, Houston gets more urban. And that means the things out in the southern part of Texas, are also becoming less rural, because Houston is getting bigger. You know, and it's and and you look at the difference between Tucson and Phoenix, they used to be a long open desert between those two things. There is now and it's I wouldn't call it urban, but it is not rural, a lot of that way. Now, these are areas where the urbanization, you can see it, you can see it happening, San Francisco is going up the skyline is totally different than 10 years ago, it's more urbanization. Google was about to put billions of dollars into more housing. You know, Tracy, which is on the other side of the hill, in the Bay Area, it's in the Central Valley is part of the Bay Area now because it's getting more urban. So no doubt about it, the urban thing is, is what's happening, we're getting more people and we tend to gather together, yes, there always be people in the hills and in the mountains, we're not talking about having to go fight that fight we're talking about about where there are 35 million people in one area, look, a big Mexico City is who wants to go fight their holy cow. So you have to deal with the human dimension. And all the things that you talked about are all that effect over effect, which doesn't fly, that whole inexorable victory comes from the IF THEN tests, you know, if we go out and kill the top five people, then we will win and, and so we talked about the big blue arrow in terms of the military and how they plan things. And the big blue arrow, everybody in the military have seen it, it's the arrow that goes from the bottom left hand corner of the picture up to the upper right. And it just shows all of these operations that you know, lead to the point of exit, and your victory. And then the next unit comes in and everything goes from being green status in the unit before to red, everything's red. I've seen it over and over again, where all of these operations happen. And then the same operations are proposed on the big giant blue arrow. So it's my does anybody wants to say it at CSC or war college or any of those things? And there's plenty of people that don't say it. The reality is this. That doesn't work. I don't know if we'll need tanks and a big Russian or China army confrontation? I don't know. I mean, maybe you hate to say that would never happen. But the bulk of our engagements for the last 50 years, you can go the last 70 years, the bulk of them have been something other than mechanized attacks. I mean, how many tanks did we kill in Vietnam? How many Vietnamese things to be killed? It just doesn't happen very often. So these are different kinds of fights now, and it's even less we don't nobody wants to have another 50,000 dead young service members from America. We just we can't we can't tolerate we can't tolerate 4000. You know, that's, that's, that's a month in World War Two, you know, so we're just not going to fight that way. We don't like it if we have to, I guess we do. But the reality is, the human dimension is paramount, the ability to work with an interpreter is a critical skill that we have no capacity to create reliably. And so if we're going to go to a place like North Korea, or Iran being able to communicate, and you're not going to learn, you can't because you're great at languages, but I'm not going to be able to learn Urdu posh to you know, any of the languages that you might have to learn to communicate and that whole region. I mean, dari and Urdu are not the same, but they're different. You know, I'd rather have someone who's a pro in that culture, who knows it innately and use their brain as like a two brain system when I talked to my partner

Unknown Speaker  36:38  
on the things that you bring, and how you would interact with a company, company, I don't know, XYZ Acme. So it's fun, calls you up and says, Hey, we want want you to come in and, you know, do what so the question is, what kind of thing? Do you think that that would be on your menu? And how would you do that in a way that's similar or different from what you do in a military environment, I think

Pete Turner  37:11  
I would want to find problem. And that problem can even be we know we've got a problem with culture, because we don't study it. And we would love to figure out how to do that, then I could sit back and help them understand what it is that they're trying to figure out. But the thing that I always need to do this stuff and and I've positive, you would echo this is I need top cover, I need the tip of the top, I need that CEO to say no, I want him there. And we're not going to violate his trust, because I have to build trust. So if I'm always worried about someone above the HR person undermining my trust, and then they go into, and they circumvent it, and they reveal something about what I find out, because I'm gonna find out bad news. Like, if there's something bad about your company, and you pay me to go find it out, guess what, you're gonna find it out, I'm gonna go get it. Like, if you want to find out about your culture, you're going to get in Grizzly ground truth detail, what your culture is at your company. And then you can start to go Holy cow, we've never thought about this before. We've never dealt with this, how do we do it? You know? And then we start the process of how do you shape culture? Because if you start building culture, you're tearing down a bunch of stuff that already exists. And I really, I'm a big believer in the infrastructure of the mind. And so I would want a mind map as much as possible that company internally, and in this case, I'm using an internal problem. You could do it externally, of course. But again, why not start with your own company and figure out where your own mistakes are? You know, I'll give you an example of companies that they say they have great customer service, because most companies don't lead with we suck at that. And then you're like, Yeah, but I've used your customer service, and it was horrible. You guys always say no to me, I don't expect you to always say yes, but if I bring you a problem, and you never solve it, and I say to you, I expect you to fail. But before we start this phone call, you've got an internal problem. And you have to fix that first because you're not facing reality. So if a company wants reality, which can be hard, it's expensive to get this stuff wrong, though, think about I there are a number of companies, I'm not a vengeful guy. But there's a number of companies that I absolutely refuse to do business with, I would only fly on united. If it was the only way for me to get there. I'd rather pay someone an extra hundred dollars to not fly on united. They've got an enormous image and cultural problem.

Unknown Speaker  39:32  
Yeah. Do you think, you know, based on military of business things you've done? How much do you think, for example, those those problems, those cultures, things are structurally based, versus personnel based verse is process and communications based, and I'm thinking about this, you know, with different because, at least in my personal experience, a lot of times there's seems to me to be some universal structure problems that I've observed within the military context, that, you know, this type of structure in organization lends itself to these kinds of mistakes, just because of its inherent design. Mm hmm. Because you can swap out personnel, and some companies are some in the military, and it's fairly easy if you really want it to right, if someone's, you know, a bad company commander, I mean, if you really want to, you can swap them out, but you can't swap out like the chain of command, we can't swap out hierarchy, it's like inherent in the military, and particularly type where you can swap out UCMJ. Not that it's, I'm not saying you should, but no one thinking about this in terms of other business things and stuff you've looked at. And when you think about structure and process and communications and personnel in the approach to culture?

Pete Turner  40:58  
It's a great question. And that balance? I think it depends, you know, it's like dialing in something with four or five knobs, you know, and some of it, it's really tough. Like, what if not be just does not cooperate, like you twist it, and you don't get a value? Because it turns out that not be is broken? Or has, it's it's the sexier knob to turn, but it just doesn't move the needle enough, you know, again, a lot of this stuff is big, obvious things, once you stop to look for it. So the institution, absolutely, institutions in general, their default is what I would call an accountability ladder problem, where everybody's looking up the ladder, the person above them, try to satisfy them. If think about this example, if you're a business owner, if you're in a business, and you talk about stakeholders, do you ever get past those words, stakeholder like, Oh, well, this person is a stakeholder because they're important, this person is a stakeholder because they're important. But you never say the word, the customers are a stakeholder. Because if they don't buy this, if they don't cooperate, none of us are important. And so when you look at stakeholder analysis, you really start to determine if you remove ego from stakeholder, and you really are working on a problem or product you're trying to promote or something like that, when you get rid of ego and like oh, well, this person is important, that person is important. And you really get into who makes a difference? That's going to be the customers got to be one of the main ones, what can we find out more about the customer? How can we get more data on them, because then we can all get aligned with what they want, need, and create the product that works. But that is really hard to do an institution, because you're worried about your promotion, you're worried about your bonus, you're worried about keeping your job, how many people in America right now are like, I don't want to make waves. I just want to keep my job. And they're in no way passion in passionate about it. And then you think in your company from the headquarters side, you're like, yeah, people love working here, you know, our turnover rate is low. Maybe because 50% 10, or more of your of your employees are terrified to do or say anything to harm their jeopardize their position. And all they really want to do is go home and be left alone and take their check. That's not enough. How many places have that problem? It's that to me, I want to give that knowledge to CEO because then they can be like, well, what the heck are we going to do about this half of our staff is afraid to innovate, afraid to fix a problem, wanted their incentive to turn the other way. So when you asked me, Bill, Oh, my gosh, institutional problems right there. I can go on all day about that.

Unknown Speaker  43:35  
Yeah, it's funny. You know, valuation is something I think about a lot and a slight spin. But I think an important one on on the value of these questions. And the value of storytelling that I have people is you look at this and say, like the NFL Draft, for example, or a, or a company, when you look at a company's problems, or you're looking to see Apple with the quality of it's going to be you're looking at a person, because really the same thing, in either recruiting to hire a new company or to bring into a battalion, or, you know, when you're doing these kind of promoting, it's interesting how that human dimension and the capacity to see where those problems are, and what problems may be.

Pete Turner  44:20  
come about. And I'll use the example of Johnny Menzel, because it's an easy one, because I'm picking on him, right. But,

Unknown Speaker  44:27  
you know, at a culture level, individuals and companies, right, have cultures and value sets that they bring to the table. And then those values interact with other ones and create more or less value overall. Yeah, and one of the things it's baffling to me, I've just never quite understood, and I think I don't know if it's because of view, and I really harp on the human part. And that's why we can see that, you know, it's our strength versus our weakness, but individual personnel or the culture of different companies as a whole, or units as a whole, you see this a bad, you know, terrible platoon or a terrible company or a terrible battalion. comparison to a good one or good sports team versus not anybody's ever worked in teams like this knows, you could take in a lot of ways, some of the same people and you swap out some of the leadership and some of the key personnel and the culture and like, what's tolerated, what's not. And all of a sudden, the whole thing changes. And I've seen teams go from basically the same sports teams players to a different coach and different culture sets, different standards, and different expectations. And it's like night and day with the almost the exact same squad. But when you're building you're bringing in new people. And so I'm I'm guess I'm wondering if if you've ever have a view or thought about some of these human skills in application to the HR and the hiring process? Oh, yeah. And then also with regard to eat when you said this, and made me think of it was the way that companies could be evaluated? What is the likelihood of them continue the Uber situation? What's the likelihood of success given x toxic culture, most people on the outside don't even realize how toxic it is? Because they haven't either one to look at it or been willing. And for me, I can see value in people who can look at a situation and say, This is actually a bomb that you don't even know you're bringing on board that you're bringing on board. And if you bring this on board, it's going to blow up. So don't bring this person or don't partner with that business. Because I know, based on my observation of culture and people, that's going to be a that's going to drag you down.

Pete Turner  46:37  
Yeah. So I want to try to frame this in a way that makes sense. One of the things I hear a lot in corporate America because they get buzzword it right like that's that they try to describe hard stuff. And so they'll latch on to something and it'll take off like an ecosystem, or something that's organic, and it begins that means something other than what it is. And one of those things. And I know that you'll appreciate this is talking about EQ and aren't emotional intelligence. And again, this is an area where, you know, there's flaws because everybody thinks their EQ is high. Nobody talks about emotional intelligence. And me I'm like, I can't do it. I don't see it. So the problem, what is the problem? Well, the problem probably is, is that the CQ, of that organization, and their ability to divine who has strong cultural acuity is at best limited or unpredictable. So when you go to hire someone to fit into a culture, if you don't have someone there that has cultural acuity, you really not even rolling the dice, you're chucking them across the room, and you're trying to play craps. And everybody's like, Why are the dice nowhere near the table? Because we don't care about CQ, but my EQ is strong. Like it doesn't, it doesn't make sense. So that there's a huge incapacity there that an organization could look at. And without over complicating a complicated thing, you can start to say how we can account for culture, what are the key 10 questions we want to ask if it's Uber, and you're going to hire people, you can ask as many questions as you want, you can sit down with 10 different people and, and have them go and think about culture in a way that you can design and get a sense for who this person is. But if the corporate culture is is one like Uber, where it was winner takes all will cover the cost later on. It's like the guy that drives in the diamond lane, knowing that the one time of year he gets caught will be worth all of the time that he doesn't. And he can zip along and traffic and get away with it. It doesn't make that guy less of a dick, it just means that he's he's willing to suffer the $500 ticket to get however many more hours back at home or to get to meetings faster to outperform his peers. So what's 500 bucks? I don't care. Is that an ethical thing to do? No. But is it unethical? I don't know. I mean, if they're able to validate that 500 bucks, okay, but you definitely have a cold problem there. where someone is not following the norm, the norm is that we all stop for red lights, the norm is that we try to at least be careful when the light turns yellow. And if someone's blatantly driving in the diamond lane, by themselves, and not carpooling, there's a problem there. And they can probably justify it in some way. If you can't account for that, and your company, who you know who's doing the diamond lame driving, then you've got someone making bets. And it could be the CEO, they've got someone making cultural bets with no idea that they're in the cultural casino. Mm hmm.

Unknown Speaker  49:34  
Yeah, that's well said. I'm curious about the things that you you know, everybody's got something that makes them tick. Right. And you're naturally lined up in your psychology certain way. Man, I've known you for years. And this is like you to the core to ask said stories, huh? What makes you know, the cliche of what makes you curious? I don't mean on that level, that's kind of base and boring. I mean, you know, is it just wanting to solve problem bombs? Or is there a particular you know, emotional need that you have? That's getting scratched when you're working for a company, or you're working for the commander, and you've got this mess of a problem? And you're, you're dedicating your life to this kind of stuff? And and I obviously I know, it's not easy. And so you wouldn't do it? unless there was some really deep seated need to go to it. Yeah. So I'm, you know, curious what that is for you. What are the what are the some of the some of the driving emotional needs that make you care?

Pete Turner  50:35  
Yeah, I mean, it's easier to do nothing, right. But I'm just not wired to do nothing. I am a person who my action verb is, do you know, let's do this. Let's go. And that's where my idol is set. Like, what can I do? And believe me, there's plenty of times when I'm lazy. And for a long time, and I don't know if this may or may not resonate with you, because because of what I know about you, and how you're always pushing development in yourself, but for a long time, my friends, my civilian friends, I would say you wouldn't recognize me in a combat zone. Now, because I'm all like, tactical and have a giant beard. Yeah, yeah, those things for sure. But I'm very type a very aggressive in my regular life, I try to keep it a notch or two below arrogant, fail at that a lot. But I try to keep it a notch. So like confident, maybe even overconfident. But in a tactical setting. It's a totally different game outwork everybody. I mean, as as a guy doing what we did, I regularly outperformed the rest of my team combined. And I don't mean that to brag, it's just to try to give you an illustration of my ability to saddle up and get to work and get to where the important things are, what everybody else is trying to write a syllabus or trying to figure out, like, here's my action plan, like your action plan. My action plan was go do. Right, you know, and repeat. And so I would go out I mean, nobody's patrolled more than me know, nobody, it doesn't exist. I mean, I've been out too many times asked too many questions. So that is my natural setting. So when I am home, and that started now with the podcast, to to merge, where I treat it, like I'm in a combat zone, because it is what I do professionally. And so part of the reason why I do this is not that I'm typing. I'm like a passive alpha. You know, like, I don't have to be the lead dog, I've led teams before, I'm glad to help you do your vision, I'm glad to do it, I don't have to lead the whole thing I can, but I don't need, I don't need that. What I need is access to the battlefield, you give me access to the battlefield, you will get back more than the rest of the platoon combined in terms of value. So if a company wants to hire me, and just turn me loose, I'm glad to work on a price that makes sense for them. And then I will start writing reports and they will start to see their company in a whole new light. All I can tell you is that's just what I do. That's what I am. Some people are music some people are are novels, you know much as I want to write a novel and a screenplay. What I am is what I am. And I'm not that. Hey, this is Pete a Turner for blinds, rock productions, we create podcasts around here. And if you your brand, or your company want to figure out how to do a podcast, just talk to me, I'll give you the advice on the right gear. The best plan is show me how to take a podcast that makes sense for you that's sustainable, that scalable and fun. Hit me up at Pete at breakdown show. com Let me help I want to hear about it. All I can tell you is that's just what I do. That's what I am some people are music some people are are novels, you know, much as I want to write a novel and a screenplay. What I am is what I am. And I'm

Unknown Speaker  53:49  
not that? Is it efficiency? Is it stability is equilibrium? is there's some, you know, the Is there a pattern with these things up? So the stories, the with a mission, the thing you're trying to a problem you're trying to solve or the story you're trying to tell? Is there a pattern in there of what those things are? Are they is there an imbalance? It's trying to be corrected? Is there an inefficiency that's trying to be fixed? Is there a knowledge that's trying to gain? Is it a perception that's not gathered that you're trying to rectify? Maybe there's not, but I just had one probing to see if, if there's a pattern if you thought about it in any way, in that frame, if there's a thing, or series of things, it's like, you know, cuz there's people who are crazy efficiency folks, and they like go around, like, their obsession is I can't stand inefficient stuff. And then they just are really good at like, you know, that tend to be OCD types, right? That just have to have it be just so yeah, and then the people who are the sort of the quality types, so our things we need to we need to balance out humanity and equality and media. And it could manifest itself in many ways. But fundamentally there, there's a person who's driven by balance and uniformity amongst people, because of the sense of justice, let's say, and I'm so curious if there's any pattern in the stories that you've chased and the problems that you tend to chase, like, politically,

Pete Turner  55:17  
I look for balance, maybe it is that I'm a balanced person, I do like the middle. And I like to have because we can get things done in the middle. And maybe that's what it ultimately is, is looking to try to rally people somewhere, somewhere in between everything else, like you don't like President Obama, could you take it if he was president? You know, like King? Can you withstand it? Or is it just too much? You know, and you try to find a reasonable balance, so you can find an efficiency and room for people? Because if you don't got room for anybody, then why do we have room for you? You know, like, if you can't tolerate something, then you're intolerant? So I think I try to look for a social balance, maybe as well what I do, and I'm not sure that that's the actual answer. But that's what comes to mind is that I'm looking to try to balance imbalance and trying to find ways to create efficiency, not in terms of, you know, this system or that system, although I can look at an organization and see those things. But there's a puzzle aspect to that with me and a human problem. And it's something that, you know, I just I play those notes well. And so every problem I see is a social problem, because I play those notes. Well, and it makes sense to me to go ahead and look for those kinds of answers. Because, you know, it's, again, it's what I am, it's what I do.

Unknown Speaker  56:42  
Okay, give me two stories that you if you could have those stories, right now, what are two stories that you would just love to have? That you'd love to add via podcast, or via documentary or whatever form? It doesn't matter? But what's two stories? Would you want to dive into?

Pete Turner  56:58  
Well, okay, there's, there's one that I would love to figure out how to do. And I've not figured out how to find the money to do it. And I would love to go around the nation. And this will go right back to what we just talked about. And I would like to call this project, the story of us. But the US is US. You know, it's it's, it's all of us, right? Because we've gotten away from this. And you and I both know, like having 55, you know, different political parties? isn't the answer, calling each other and Nazi is certainly not the answer. You know, all of these things that make us something other than us, I think is partly partly solvable. By just learning Who the heck us are. I mean, we're really rough on the south, you know, really, really, really rough. And in some ways they deserve that. They've done some shitty things to people over the years, you know, but in other ways, we're so ignorant about what the South is, and the good things about the South that we often dismiss who they are and what they do, in a way that's, you know, honestly, just as bigoted as what they do, because intolerance and big bigotry lyst, those things are synonyms. So I would love to do that. I would love to go tell us the story of us.

Unknown Speaker  58:19  
Yeah, I like that story of us, us. Medium, if you're going to tell that story. I know. You said you hadn't figured out how is it? Is that is that a documentary? Is that a series of traveling podcasts, interviews in different regions with different folks over the course of three, six months, what possibilities that you thought, what do you think of convey that the best?

Pete Turner  58:41  
Well, look, what I want to do. And what I can do are two different things. Right? I mean, I will you

Unknown Speaker  58:45  
never know, we might have a listener who can just donate an hour. Yeah. Okay. So happened, right? Yeah. So we're in a big here, brother.

Pete Turner  58:53  
If I had a bit of a budget, yeah, I mean, I would do, I would do video. And I would basically make it a documentary of sorts, or, you know, some sort of documentary series that you could sell the Netflix or whatever, I know that seeing that person in their environment, seeing that grandma with their oxygen tank, who's just full of love, you know, or could use a hand up, we could all have a lot more empathy, we could feel different emotions than just, you know, it's easy to say, someone so does this and have no fucking idea what you're talking about. But when you sit down with that person, the person that you hate, you know, in a vacuum, and you have to deal with their reality, one of the things I learned along the way is that you don't want to trade problems with anybody else. Because they're the ones you built to do their stuff that they're doing. And you wouldn't, you wouldn't probably couldn't handle their problems. And oftentimes, they're much worse, like, oh, I've got cancer. Well, let me introduce you to somebody who wishes they had cancer, you know, yeah, I would want to do it a video,

Unknown Speaker  59:55  
do it in video. And then the idea is then to, you know, you said maybe one avenue is pretty, it's a Netflix and something like that, right? Yeah. So for you, because you know, you're the storyteller guy. Do you see that? I'm gonna I'm gonna intentionally flush this out a little bit where, you know, you get somebody who's the videographer. And you're the interviewer. Yeah. What's that team look like? What do you need to make that happen?

Pete Turner  1:00:16  
Oh, yeah, pretty simple. You know, like, a lot of it will be done myself. And you know, me, it's mobile. It's a backpack. You know, like, I'm out there. But yeah, but I hire someone else to help me set things up to make it not be an all day affair. Ideally, Amtrak is smart. And they let me ride a train. And I talked about Amtrak all the time. Yeah, you just go out and I just, I try to hit 100 towns, and then get that into, you know, do like, do an hour long show. 45 minutes show do 15 minutes on each town. And then you have 30 episodes

Bill Mankins  1:00:48  
of old school presidential election from the 1800s. Just move from town to town and talk with the people. Exactly,

Pete Turner  1:00:55  
yeah, just get out there and go do it. Right. And yeah,

Bill Mankins  1:00:58  
like politicians claim they do now because they actually don't.

Pete Turner  1:01:00  
Yeah, I've been to town halls and good luck. Your question answered. You know?

Unknown Speaker  1:01:07  
Yeah, it's funny, because what you just said, right, there is I think the thing that you and I both observed in in rural foreign places, and urban foreign places, is that understanding people who are seemingly in the same place the Rockies, no Afghans, but Americans, Canadians, they're really so varied, it's almost impossible to have the meaning much of anything, as opposed to the diversity actually there. And I love it, man. I think that that documentary of going around and really recording that diversity in the raw, yeah, would be super powerful. You just got to get a videographer. And she said, what a forward coordinator to make some of those calls and make it a little.

Pete Turner  1:01:55  
Yeah, time sequence. Yeah. Oh, totally. If you had to guess, what do you think it costs? I could do that, I would say super lean, I think I could get that whole thing put together for $75,000. That means I don't have really any, any money in it, you know, for me, like it's just enough to keep us fed and dry. But I think I could get it done for that and have have a product that was compelling enough that it would win awards. And yeah, you know, make people think a little bit, which would be the goal, like if giving along is a worthwhile goal. Think give me $75,000 and show you who you're trying to get along with.

Unknown Speaker  1:02:32  
Yeah, well, here's something for your for your listeners. I actually think not only is that an amazing point, I think it would be particularly amazing to be doing in an election year. Haha. Like this. I mean, seriously? And who knows? Maybe you got a listener out there that can they or series of them, they can donate that kind of funds? Because I'll tell you what, man, I love to hear you do that. And soon, I will kind of lead time but you need three months, six months? How much time does it take to to like, set up on that?

Pete Turner  1:03:02  
Well, I mean, I think I could, once I had the first few setup, and I figured the Traveling Salesman Problem out of where I was going, which can all be done fairly shortly. I think I could go out and do 100 cities, I could do that in 120 days, I could do that in four months. And then I would need, you know, four months of post, maybe maybe six months of post production time, maybe a little less. But yeah, yeah, it can be done that quickly. It mean, if you have the money, the work isn't a problem. It's just the money. That's the problem, you know, like making it making it sound great up front, that's all known. You know, it's, it's being able to have a way to get around with two to three people and go gather stuff in a way that makes any kind of sense to anybody that just takes time and money, you know?

Unknown Speaker  1:03:51  
Mm hmm. And then the last question is asked you the story problem, you know, what's a particular problem? Maybe this is tied into a particular person that you're sort of really would like to dive into? Well,

Pete Turner  1:04:06  
you're asking me questions that I think I'm giving you the answer you want on this, but yeah, I These are things I think about is, you know, what do I What do I want to do? I would love to, in a multimedia form, go out and study? What if these are the big issues of our time, right? So I would love to go out and study what for the United States medical care for all looks like? You know, because here's what I know about medical care for everybody. Nobody is in the line that requires the sacrifice everybody has to make to make it happen. Yeah, not the insurance industry, not the doctors, not the patients, not the medical providers. You know, nobody's in the line that says, I can give up everything. I've got to make this happen. Everybody wants it. But but the sacrifice isn't there. So what would it take and go talk to the people who are the experts? And and get them to say, here's how you would do this in my world, and then just see how disparate it is? And then start to find the areas where you maybe could say, well, if that was true, maybe this is the other thing that we could do. And if you guys could do that, maybe we you know, and just understanding what the problem is. Because I don't think we haven't understood we know we want everybody wants something different. It's like being president. When I ask people like what are the attributes of a great president, it's clearly not experience, even though we say that, because we love President Obama, you know, that guy's absolutely unqualified as a candidate to be president. So it isn't that we don't like President Trump, who was sort of not really qualified at all to be president. So what is it people struggle? So just to show like how different we all are, a while we're all still the same? I think in terms of medical care, I think that would be an enormous benefit to the problem of how do we care for one another, in terms of medicine, you know, and do it in a way that makes sense to somebody. And the same thing with it with a documentary kind of format over the course of time, or in a series or in a single set? How big of a problem, how much time do you think you need to explore that? That's a bigger problem, right? Because you've got to get all of the stakeholders. And again, I do meet some of the patients too. So to understand the medical insurance problem, you know, the employer problem, the medical provider problem, by the way, everybody has access to medical care, where are these doctors and physician, all these resources, these people that you need to do this job? Where are they going to come from? You know, because what is turn on 10s of millions of people having more access to medical care, and say, hey, it's no big deal. There's plenty of doctors, because there's a lot of doctors, that IK we're not taking new patients anymore. Yeah, there's a problem right there that no one ever talks about is the capacity to actually find reliable care. You know, that's what is that? Is that a 15 year problem, to go, Hey, we're now going to incent people, lower the standards for medical practitioners and push money into the system so that we can all have more access to medical care, because that has to be tort law, tort you know, tort reform, and that has to be part of the conversation.

Unknown Speaker  1:07:23  
Yeah, it's interesting on the on the medical side, so as a paramedic for a little while, and you look at some of the things that have changed along that line of pushing stuff down the nurse practitioner role, right. And some of these others that are, well, you don't have to be a medical doctor, but there's a certain level of care, that's significant, and it's high. But like, these problems can be dealt with, without having some with eight years of medical training, they can be dealt with some of the six or four or Yeah, you know, whatever. And the way that again, go back to structure, the systems are designed. I yeah, man, I would love to hear when there's an Intel guy too, because here's the other thing, you know, one of the things that kills me about absolutely kills me, and why cannot stand to watch political, because they're not actually debating, because debate requires talking about the same set of facts and having different views on the same set of facts. They're using to police different sets of facts so that they talk right past each other, and not actually communicate on the principle or premise of the idea. Yeah, and which is, of course, how it's designed, because they're talking to themselves and talking to their constituents is not to try to actually persuade others, and the opposite party or other people are reality. And so from the storytelling standpoint, and the Intel standpoint, not only interviewing those people, right, because they're going to give you their perceptions and their views. And those are windows. And the truth is, you know, but getting a series of I won't say neutral, because not facts aren't necessarily neutral, they can be more in line with one side or another on a given topic on a different day. But that would allow a legitimate conversation exploration issue to occur. Right? We're both people on multiple, both sides. There's, there's more than two sides, but other sides to watch that documentary, to have meaningful exploration of the facts, not the facts of the pundit on a given day, in a given debate, you know, 47% of people lost their jobs this year, and an 87% of new jobs have been created. Make sense of that? What does that even mean? Both are true? Maybe neither true? Maybe, you know, what would be the connection between those two points? Right. And so yeah, I would love to see that documentary man. The interesting problem, why healthcare what's what's the what's the drive for you that says, I want to deal with healthcare, I think it's solvable if you

Pete Turner  1:09:47  
get the right people involved. And and you know, who I'd want to talk to, at the top of the pyramid is like, you know, you know, the guy who solves most of the supply and demand problems in this nation is Jeff Bezos, I would love to hear him his thoughts and how he solves this problem. Because if it's not a corporate answer, if it's not a capitalistic answer, then you have a lot of barriers to overcome in terms of how America solves its problems. I don't know that it's worth our time to try to, to avoid that reality. You know, like, why couldn't Jeff Bezos fix that? Like, why not? That seems like, that's perfect for him, just to say, I'll be back, you know,

Bill Mankins  1:10:32  
come to the solution.

Pete Turner  1:10:33  
Let the let the I don't know the best businessman of our time, let him solve it, I don't need half his money when he dies. I need him to solve problems for as long as he's alive. Because he can solve impossible things at a rate that's greater than, you know, human, Ilan Musk, those guys are incredible. Just him and his friends to figure it out, in a subscription based medical care program comes out. And then here's how you do it. And if you want more, you get prime. And if you want even more in that, whatever, right, I'm positive, and I don't know what the answer is, I'm not trying to suggest that's the answer. But those guys have ideas that are going to change how we see this problem. And of all of the problems I see out there that we deal with day to day, this seems to be one that continues to come back, you know, like we, you know, security goes in and out of Vogue, immigration goes in and out of Vogue, you know, it's, it's an issue today, but it won't be an issue tomorrow, it'll be something else. today. It's forever wars and how we want to get out of them. But But those things are all sort of trendy medical care, especially with the baby boomers, hitting that point in time when they're there in the in, you know, in the zone where they're getting, a lot of them are going to the daily care, we need to figure this stuff out. And then when the millennials come down the pipe and 35 years, and they're they're in that zone, we need to figure this out, because it's not going to get cheaper.

Unknown Speaker  1:11:52  
No, no, it is not. It seems like in both of these ways, the documentary, or the or the video, visual video. Hello, again, short form documentary in the single hundred minute episode, versus the series episode, you know, seems to be I've heard you say this a couple times. Now. Is it because you can visually capture the person that you're talking with and capture those emotions? Or what's what's the what what why do you said that?

Pete Turner  1:12:20  
I want to put the camera on your shoulder when we go to Afghanistan, because what you see is incredible. What the rider thinks up in a Starbucks and Culver City is fascinating and and the words are perfect all the time because they're great at that. But you and I both know that that dude or that chick can't go sit in a corner in some Valley in Kohner province, come back alive and enlightened, you know. So the same thing is true here. If I was to go into the Tennessee Valley, and start knocking on doors, I'm going to find reality that you can write about later on, when I'm done. Make a story about how incredible it was. But nobody, nobody has that ability that you and I have. Nobody, hardly anybody has that ability that you and I have to go out and have that one to one interaction. And I don't want to deny people that reality. That truth. I want to bring ground truth to a higher level. But I don't want to compromise the ground truth to do it.

Unknown Speaker  1:13:21  
Well, it goes back to your original one of yours and comments in the talk about wanting to ask the uncomfortable questions. And the uncomfortable, uncover the uncomfortable truth. Yeah.

Pete Turner  1:13:37  
This is our reality. You know, if we can choose to ignore it, we can get mad at each other, you can call me a Nazi. But after you're done with that, let me know. Because here are the problems still. These things remain. And I'm a really big proponent of finding where the work is. Where's the work? I want my partner to do X. Yeah, but they're on. So do you want to focus on x? Or do you want to focus on f? And I know that that is a lot of that reality out there for us, I you know, just going out and just looking at people in the face and finding out where that work is, you know, when someone's like, my girlfriend won't do this.

Bill Mankins  1:14:18  
All right.

Pete Turner  1:14:20  
Why do you think she won't do it cuz she's a bitch. It is, like, probably not the case, it's probably something else their backup make it simpler. Where's the actual work at? Like, maybe you need to spend more time with her listening to her. And that in and of itself, as you try to get more into what your girlfriend needs, you will start to be more attuned to her and start to fix some of those problems.

Bill Mankins  1:14:44  
Back to the human dimension.

Pete Turner  1:14:46  
That's what I do.

Bill Mankins  1:14:48  
It is and do it. Well.

Pete Turner  1:14:50  
Thanks, man. I appreciate

Unknown Speaker  1:14:51  
Yeah, brother. It's It's always a pleasure talking to you. Consistently surprised at the clarity? Even after all these years, I think 30 of the ways you communicate and think the infrastructure the mind, it's going to popped up today. Yeah, just awesome. I don't know what I can do. But I definitely men would love to see somehow. And I want to push it because I see two documentaries. Me personally, in particular, the one about the story of us, just because I us because I think it's it's insanely pertinent. Because most folks don't travel outside of their norm for any length of time. Yeah. And whether their norm is I'm, you know, wealthy Northeastern, or whether they're enormous, I'm a average Midwestern or, or whether their reality is I know whatever, you name it socio economic distinction, racial distinction, ethnic distinction, age, whatever their demographic subcategory sector in the grand matrix is typically don't get outside of it in any depth. And so, you know, yeah, you meet somebody, you know, somebody at church or somebody at work somebody at wherever, and, you know, I'm kinda like, usually, like, hangs out with like, and as a result, the truly cross conversations don't happen. And I think, you know, you've heard me say, a million times, I guess you probably agree, but to me, the greatest national security threat is actually internal. Yeah. And the disunity? Yeah, that exists. And ironically, it's the stuff we're doing to ourselves, that is at the heart of that. And I would love to see that documentary to kind of highlight. Yeah, who we are, I want to encourage you to get after it. I don't know how we do it. Well,

Pete Turner  1:16:45  
it's a project that can be done, I just, you know, I have to make time in my schedule. You know, I have to produce the shows, I sort of have a verbal contract that everybody I want to put these things out. But now that I have someone, we hired this guy, Damien in Macedonia, to edit shows for us, so now that He exists, I'm going to take this time, and go out and try to find some of these people, because you're right, and I'm a big fan of using the prefix Miss. So like, you like Miss comfort. It's not discomfort, you just don't know this comfort. So you have to, you have to hear someone's reality. So you can go, Okay, I can, I don't have to like it. This is our job, right? I don't have to like what I see, I don't have to approve of the cultural things I see. But I do have to accept them. This is their path. And you know, they were raised by their uncles, they are raised by their community. And they act this way, this is their reality. And so it doesn't have to be comfortable. But after a while, you're like, yeah, this is how this is here. If I'm presumed to change their condition, I better start from a position of understanding. So in our nation as we do try to tear each other down. And and we get more fragmented, I would submit two things. One, there's a whole lot more people in the middle. And if we follow focus more of our attention there, we could all do a lot more than focusing on folks like the US women's team were disrespectful to the flag, they some of them when they won the World Cup. Okay, that's great. That's sensational. But let's go find 25 people that agree on something that they can fix, like, you don't like how veterans are treated. Everybody send me $25, I will go find two veterans, and I will feed them until that money runs out, I will change that I will change that person's life today. Or we can complain about some girls in France who didn't care about the flag, because they're mad at I would rather focus on the bigger things that we can all do. And I got it. I guess that's just submitting one thing, because I forgot what the second thing was going to be.

Unknown Speaker  1:18:46  
Sorry, man. Yeah, we had to find people to do that to get you on the road and get going. I'm glad you get the guy from Macedonia. That's cool. Yeah, to help with that editing. And I, you know, Netflix, I think is a great idea. Whatever the distribution component is, whether it's there's no HBO or you name it, but like I do I really or or, Hey, good Bezos and put it on the Amazon Prime right now you go, yeah, you can have a bid for it. But I mean, I know you can get those interviews, and with the people, right, and those those books, well, thanks for having me. Dude, I gotta tell you, thank you so much for for letting me sit here and interview. It's fun.

Pete Turner  1:19:24  
Well, I appreciate learn how you tick brother. We all learn from these things, you know, like chicken. And I know I turned the mic around quite a bit. I let people talk to me and everything. But I learned so much here. This will sound ridiculous. I learned so much by listening to myself talk about the things that I know about. Because I'm I don't know if you could tell, but I was completely off the cuff unguarded. And so when I hear, I'm gonna just be like, wow, I said that. Okay. You know, and I learned a lot, but but you have to I don't fear those things anymore. I don't fear. If I listened to this in 10 years, I'll probably be like, I won't want to hear it. I'd be like, I don't want to hear it. But then I'll hear it. I'll be like, you know what, at least I was being honest. If I can give myself that. And other people can appreciate it, then that's good enough.

Bill Mankins  1:20:08  
Yeah, it's funny, the most powerful thing I think we have is being being authentic. I don't know about you. But there's something about a certain age or certain place in life, or certain set of experiences that gives you this incredible freedom that really is an incredible sense of power, about just being authentic. And that authenticity is actually what gives you the greatest power to be effective that you actually can get Yeah,

Pete Turner  1:20:37  
being authentic isn't a license to be an asshole either, you

Bill Mankins  1:20:40  
know? No, that's right. That's right,

Pete Turner  1:20:41  
you and I are alive still, because we're not assholes, because we're quite fortunate. But also, we had the ability to find protection in the hardest places in the world. So again, our ability to go out and get a story that no one else can get is, is really, it's something remarkable, whether it's in the corporate sector, or in the most literally the most physically dangerous places on earth. We can go out and get something and bring it back. And that's just, it's a rare thing. It's not a sign of thing that seals do or green bridge do better than us. There's really nobody, maybe some reporters here and there. But But when the grit and the reality get the most dangerous, the most hazardous, the most challenging. The guys you want standing around, they look like us.

Unknown Speaker  1:21:27  
Yeah, it's funny. That capacity to sell and convince, I think it's a I always didn't like that word. I don't know, growing up, I just kind of had a thing where I couldn't stand, quote, business types, because I just you know, chasing money for the sake of money is just never set well with me. I never respected it, quite frankly, solving problems that leads to making money isn't making money. That's certainly a problem. I want to make money, lots of money. But my God, I should live for money and help solve problems and to learn and be curious and find solutions. Yeah, they're not final solutions they are they are litigations to making something better than it is in the current, right. Yeah. And I eventually sort of started to think about sales in a way or small be business and about what we're doing in some ways, and some has Nintendo, what do you know about sales and make it something? I've sold over a dozen people not to kill me who wanted to? Yeah. And that's why I'm here. Otherwise, he dead serious? So that's a pretty big sales trick. Let me tell you, you will know. And so it is sales? Yeah, most definitely, with a lot on the line. What did I care about my life and use it?

Pete Turner  1:22:42  
Well, I mean, and I wanted to say, and I don't want to keep going, but we'll make this into a two parter. So it's fine. But when you and I sit across from somebody, I'll just talk about my specific case, when I sit across from someone, and I'm essentially, I'm directly asking them to betray their country read to betray their friends to give me information. And they say, yes, that's the ultimate pitch, to have them go, yeah, I want to do this, and I'm not selling them on a big fancy car, or lots of money, there may be a little bit of money in it, I'm selling them on emotion. And if you can do that, look out, you know, like, I should be able to sell everything, but I just don't think business like that. I think about emotions, and what other people have their own specific business minds and everything. You know, I've spent a lot of my time in combat zones talking to people. And so that's just, that's how I get things done is by talking to people, connecting them, finding out small ways to create value for people. And then my my existence comes out of that. So hopefully, I can make some of these stories happen. Hopefully, I can throw some money at you to get your help to go tell these stories, because I can't imagine better people than like yourself will rich the day myself to go do this kind of work, because it's got to be done by guys like us.

Unknown Speaker  1:24:03  
Yeah, it's funny is I always say it's politics. It's not only politics in that, what I consider a dirty sense, because I can't stand it. But even time with the sales like you're constantly either selling yourself, you're getting other people to believe in trust and building that rapport. At the end of the day, went to tie in your your, you know, somebody give you secrets and the trailer country so to speak, or betray the country men, right or betray their neighbor, and turn them in because they're, you know, they're a threat. You know, politics boils down to two things, how should I live? And how should we all require each other to live. And it's funny to me the

Pete Turner  1:24:47  
I'll just say the idea that is selling people in a vision

Unknown Speaker  1:24:54  
to believe in something that's different than what they got. And while people might be cool, you know, betraying their country ever with with, it's not even so much the country, I would argue as much as it's, I don't like the current reality. I like the reality that you're explained to me better. And I want to transition from this reality to that future. And make that future that you're talking about the present a great quote, you know, that everybody quotes that's like my tagline on my emails, like care about it so much. Now I have this way to, to predict the future is create it. And I I really do think that in a sales sense to have convincing other people and building rapport. And so one of the sad things I think that politicians in fact, don't do, which is the very fundamental thing that a leader, not a politician, not a CEO, not a leader. Yeah, any capacity, whether it's the neighbor, boy, or anybody else has the capacity to tell you, look, we can do things better than we are a day. We can make them better. It's within our capacity. And and

Pete Turner  1:26:01  
here's how we can do that. Join me.

Unknown Speaker  1:26:05  
You know, I think that's where really interesting, why again, to tie it back Why I think the idea of meeting and talking with people across this country have their vision for the future, the healthcare thing, all that stuff is like how can that future be better than ours is today? And what's your what's your take from your vantage point and your little piece of the pie?

Pete Turner  1:26:32  
It's cool, man. And that's one of my favorite things. This is really not on topic. But since you talked about your email quote, thing, that's what makes it germane. And then I'm going to leave you with leave you with this, but you know that you're saying things that interesting when you make someone's email quote, and so on. Scott Shipman quoted me from a funny conversation in a tweet. And we were talking about San Diego and I said, San Diego is like a Vegas grandma. She's hot like a 55 year old showgirl absolutely loves a sailor and smokes only when she drinks and she's always drinking. That's my San Diego quote. And it's on the bottom of someone's email. So I must be saying something good.

Bill Mankins  1:27:20  
That's hilarious. Are you kidding me? But actually,

Pete Turner  1:27:25  
I'll share my screen with you right now. And I'll show you that's, that's a classic. Hundred percent real? Yeah. Well, listen, thank you for interviewing me. Thank you for spending this time with me. I know we could go for five more hours. So we'll just have to plan another session. And and do this some more. But yeah, man, I'm inspired. I'm inspired to do these things and being able to share stories. This is what it's all about. And sometimes I get to be the subject of the story. So I think everybody for listening in interested what you all have to think. I mean, if I'm wrong on something, by all means, I don't claim to be right heck of anything, the more I learned, you know, you know, I suppose bill, you're about to get two PhDs. The more I learned, the more I realized, I don't know the first fucking thing.

Bill Mankins  1:28:03  
You know? Isn't that the truth?

Pete Turner  1:28:05  
Yeah, I'm just gonna keep on going keep on doing and, and try to do it with even less ego and more kindness and if I have the ability to help someone else out, but mostly try to make sure that no one has to help me. But be soft enough. I'm willing to take help because I certainly need

Bill Mankins  1:28:21  
well Thanks, brother. Appreciate the opportunity interview and tend to talk Look forward to it again.