Robin Dreeke - Sizing People Up, Developing Trust

 Robin Dreeke - Sizing People Up, Developing Trust - This episode features Robin Dreeke returning for a third visit to discuss his new book, Sizing People Up. Robin is a best-selling author, professional speaker, trainer and retired FBI Special Agent and Chief of the Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program.

Get Sizing People up here
​
As counterintelligence agents, Robin Dreeke and Pete A Turner  were constantly sizing people up and gaining their trust. In this #spyvsspy episode, the guys talk about using trust as a means for extracting information and ultimately saving lives. 

Robin’s new book is called “Sizing people up” (Get it Here)
Robin breaks down the art of leadership, communication, and relationship building into Five Steps to trust and Six Signs of who you can trust and about creating and maintaining deeper understanding of others.

Haiku
Sizing people up
Means predicting their actions
Robin shows us how

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Robin Dreeke ​
Robin Dreeke
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Executive Producer/Host/Intro: Pete A Turner
Producer: Damjan Gjorgjiev
​Writer: Bojan Spasovski ​

Transcript

​Pete Turner  0:00  
Real quick everybody this is Pete a Turner from the break it down show doing my intro live today from LA x terminal. That's the power of the bulletproof podcast and sm 35 microphone from Sure. And a zoom h6 so check it out. Today's guest is Robin Drake. He's been on three times before. He's a former counter-intelligence just like myself. He did his work with the FBI. And here in the States, I did my work abroad. We talked about our ability to influence people through building trust. And now he's got a new book called sizing people up based upon their actions and reactions. And if you build a trusting relationship, you're able to figure out people in a lot faster ways than normal. ​

​Pete Turner  0:00  
Real quick everybody this is Pete a Turner from the break it down show doing my intro live today from LA x terminal. That's the power of the bulletproof podcast and sm 35 microphone from Sure. And a zoom h6 so check it out. Today's guest is Robin Drake. He's been on three times before. He's a former counter-intelligence just like myself. He did his work with the FBI. And here in the States, I did my work abroad. We talked about our ability to influence people through building trust. And now he's got a new book called sizing people up based upon their actions and reactions. And if you build a trusting relationship, you're able to figure out people in a lot faster ways than normal. lot more reliably to Hey, you're going to love this episode I I just cannot say enough positive things about Robin and I know no matter what even if you're not a spy, his books will help you in the business world. So definitely check them out as code of trust and sizing people up real quick support the show, share the show, tell your friends about it. By the Just a quick note on sharing the show. Share this Show comment on if you comment that helps continue to buy the books like you've been doing continue to do the great things you're doing and if you're new welcome we have so many episodes feel free to ask me for a recommendation after you listen to this one because I know you'll find it interesting. Hit me up at Pete a Turner. Or Pete at break it down show calm Alright, save the brave the brave.org drop a little money in our pockets each month we'll put it to work saving veterans lives. All right, thank you guys so much. Here comes Robin drink lions rock productions.

Unknown Speaker  1:30  
This is Jay Mohr and this is Jordan. Dexter from the Navy Sebastian youngsters, Rick maronna Stewart Copeland Mitch Alexis Andy

Unknown Speaker  1:38  
somebody there's a skunk Baxter. Gabby Reese is Rob bell.

Pete Turner  1:41  
This is john Leon Guerrero. Hey, and this is Pete a Turner.

Robin Dreeke  1:46  
Hey, this is Robin Drake. And you're listening to the break it down show.

Pete Turner  1:52  
This is the second try. I screwed the last one up. I don't know what I did wrong. But we're recording again with Robin and in announcing his book signing People up. It's his latest book. And I just First off, I can't get enough of you, Robin, I love how we both approach our very complex and dangerous jobs by by focusing on trust by focusing on how, you know, how do I understand what you need, I call it the infrastructure of the mind, you know, you call it your own thing. But we get to the same spot, and I just I love it when we get a chance to share our conversations.

Robin Dreeke  2:24  
Yeah, I love it up, you know, you did most of your stuff. Oh, conus I did all my stuff. conus. And, and you're right, you know, human interpersonal interactions. I think when we're very young, we start out in these professions, we really try to overcomplicate things, because, you know, we sit there and these master classes with these people down dousing us with all this knowledge, all these techniques, all these tools, all these things, you know, for like six, eight months at a time sometimes. And we think this is very complicated, but then when you actually go up to the world of practical application, you actually whittle it down to learning how to be The person you were hard to be to begin with you were hired because you were a good human being. And it comes down to what good human beings do well, good human beings know how to demonstrate value and demonstrate the affiliation with others, you know, and that's it, you know, you build trust and you build a healthy relationship, because without those, you will have nothing. I always say, you know, I think I said it last summer together to you know, I work with confidential human sources that have bread and butter of working counter-intelligence have read about a terror, counterterrorism bread and butter of criminal work, bread and butter of life. And so I always say I'd rather have seven people give me 120% of their effort willingly than 100 people give me 5% reluctantly, because I have to, I have to have triple sources to figure out whether that 5% was lying or not. It's much better to have 7% you know, I mean, seven people give me all that effort was like, the veracity is there because they want to be part of it. And how do you do that? health and relationships and trust?

Pete Turner  3:53  
Yeah, it's why Yeah, it's exactly right. You can go around and try to Trick and convince and control the conversation to find out a fact that you still have to triple triple check it because you just don't know,

Robin Dreeke  4:08  
you know. And then the problem with that is I never, you know, one of the things I always talk about is I never think about just a person I'm interacting with, because they're obviously first and foremost and developing a trust relationship. But also, I am thinking about from that point forward, as soon as I break contact with this individual, what's my brand, because they're now going to radiate to the rest of their day weekend, months ahead, the relationship and the engagement we just had, and if you leave them feeling better for having met you, then the brand is good, even if they don't want it even if they don't want to cooperate, maybe some of their talking to will because I hear about this FBI guy that as well. he's a really good guy. I didn't want to I didn't want to cooperate with the FBI. But you know what? I would meet with him anytime of day because he bought me a beer and he treated me really well.

Pete Turner  4:55  
Right? Yeah.

That's so simple as saying the interactions like I would have interactions with folks that didn't have enough stuff that, you know, basically, our biker game shows up at their house, you know, so I always had to work within that paradigm. Like, it's almost like dating, you know, like, if you see someone who's attractive at a bar or a mixture of some kind, you know, you're not getting that real person right away, you're getting a performance of that person. And so I always kind of took that, like, they expect me to be this, this there, they expect me to be a spy, whether I am or not, that's where they start. And they don't actually have to trust me, they'll act like it. But if I don't, if I don't start with that, like, they're not going to trust me right away, they're going to perform, the sooner I can get them to be genuine, the better off I am, and getting the quality information out of them. And then also, maybe they don't know everything in the world. Maybe they just know a piece of something or an element of it. I don't want them trying to wow me with what they don't know. Because because they're enamored with talking to me or whatever. I want to understand who they are. So the I can find out what benefits them and then get introduced to the next person in line because that person is an important part of my network, but they're not the last node.

Robin Dreeke  6:09  
You know, and that's that goes that, you know that old wives tale thing, you know, the six degrees of separation of Kevin Bacon. Yeah, that's what you know, you know, it's someone who knows something who knows something, you know, because here's the guarantee, I always believed, you know, with my, you know, when I retired, I had seven beautiful, confidential human sources that were fantastic human beings. I guarantee you I could find out any piece of information we ever needed. Anytime we had a new collection requirement come out, I knew exactly I could get it and the seven people wouldn't have it, but they know someone who knew someone who had I generally I never had to go deeper than two layers of separation to find something out. And sometimes and here's the funny thing that I realized towards the end of my career, it used to take like, you know, I get a collection requirement for for whatever it is whatever Intel gap we had, and it might take me six, eight months to you know, find the right person. I might know that right. And by the time I retired, it was down to like a You're too, just because why? Because the depth of the of the trust and the relationships that you have makes things happen even faster, because what happens is when people want to interact with you, they're thinking all about you and your priorities all the time anyway. And so they're coming up with ideas. You know, it's, you know, one of my best questions always at the end of every meeting is so what did I ask you that you think I need to know?

Pete Turner  7:21  
I got my hands in the air. I asked that.

Robin Dreeke  7:25  
What don't I know that you think I need to know that I never even bother asking you. You know, that's where the gold comes out. Because the bad guys know exactly what you should know. Hell a lot more than you do.

Pete Turner  7:34  
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's such a powerful question. Yeah. Like what questions that I've asked you that I should ask you, or I would use what's the simplest thing that we can solve today? Tomorrow? What's the easy last day? Yeah. And then they'll say, Oh, well, you know, this road has ruts in it and it's breaking our cars so if we could fix that road like fix the fucking road, is that it?

Robin Dreeke  7:55  
You know, don't you know and what and what did you just do? You actually sought their thoughts and opinions but priority, because again, my four mantras for how to make the conversation about everyone else but yourself is seek their thoughts and opinions, talk in terms of their priorities, validate their thoughts and opinions and who they are without judging them and give them choices. And in that one simple statement and question, you know, I call discovery questions, you got exactly that and you became a resource for their success and prosperity without expectation, reciprocity, so it go

Pete Turner  8:24  
Yeah, and and again, here we go. Ready? I'm gonna hit the ball right back to you at the same thing. I discovered that one of the most powerful questions I had, and I said it in Arabic all the time was shoe reineke. What's your opinion? Oh, yes, asking their opinion on something. It's the same same tool, and they couldn't help but start to explain this whole thing. And then now without controlling them, I'm absolutely in control of where this conversation is going. And, and I'm getting, you know, an insightful answer, that they've probably been dying to tell someone

Robin Dreeke  8:57  
and you're and you're getting their context and You're understanding them. And so here's what's really, you know, you take this to the next level that a lot of people have a hard time doing sometimes because it's anti intuitive. And that is most of the time when we're interacting with other people. We want to tell them our thoughts and opinions, we're trying to how do we convince them to listen to us? Yes, and you can't. And so the beautiful thing is, you just did it secret thoughts and opinions? Well, if you want them to listen to what it is you want to tell them, best thing to do is ask them what they think about what you want to tell them. And now and their brains engaged. You know, I always say you don't plant seeds with people by asking them. I mean, you don't plant seeds with people by telling them what you think you plant seeds by asking them what they think. And they'll remember

Pete Turner  9:39  
that your first your first book that we talked about was code of trust, not your first book ever. But when we first met was code of trust, and that's where we, we started realizing we vibed and we had independently kind of discovered these things doing, you know, a similar job, a name counter-intelligence but a totally different application of the job. What's this new book sizing people up? What is That about.

Robin Dreeke  10:01  
So that's actually taking it to the next level where I found when I was doing the code of trust, which was all right, what behaviors do I need to do? And do I need to have so I can inspire someone to want to trust me and have a relationship with me. And it required a hell of a lot of focus on the other person. And what I found is, is over time, when I'm focusing so hard on the other person, people started becoming kind of predictable, and predictable in the sense that, you know, here's another truth is that all human beings will always, always take actions in their own best interest for safety, security and prosperity. And so now what I was doing in the code of trust was I was trying to understand how they saw safety and security prosperity from their point of view. And so I started saying, Well, I can actually I can predict what every human being is going to do. They're always going to act and own best interest. All I got to do is figure out what they think is in their best interest. And so that's where sizes and I sizing people up came from, it's it's about how to predict trust, but at a at a more Really level trust is kind of subjective. So, and a lot of people make the mistake of using liking someone to trusting someone. And that's very subjective. And just because you like someone doesn't mean you can trust them. Because what I do is I redefined trust as predictability, predict someone's going to do it situations. And for the main purpose, we go back to relationships again, because if I set a bar for someone, and I set it too high, because I hope they're going to do better, or I like them, and they fall short of that, what happens? The relationship goes south because I'm angry, discontent frustrated. And so the whole the whole purpose of this so I can reasonably expect what I can expect you to do in these different situations. So you're going to meet the bar or exceed it. And also because I'm so focused on understanding you, if you don't meet the bar been something went sideways in your life and I need to resource for you there. So this is about creating and maintaining deeper understanding of others.

Pete Turner  11:55  
Yeah, and and again, you know, same thing like as always I think we talked about this in the in the show that didn't record but my cross collaboration cultural matrix, you know, you understand the decision making process and the goal.

Robin Dreeke  12:12  
Right, right. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Pete Turner  12:13  
And when if you're not, you're going to get these outcomes, passive aggressive behavior, perceptions of incompetence, or it may vary unlike on the scenario, but these other outcomes. So when you hear back like this person's incompetent, let some one of the other ones you should now be alerted. Hey, I need to slow down and spend more time understanding what their goals are, how they make their decisions, so that we can get some congruence and then also take time to explain my goals, my outcomes, and see where those things line up. That must resonate with you all day long.

Robin Dreeke  12:48  
Yeah, absolutely. Matter of fact, you talked about competence. That's part of sign three for me, which is reliability. Reliability is a combination of competence as well as diligence, you know, competence, so they have the skill set. required to do it and diligence so they have the tenacity to actually follow through and actually do it. So that so the six signs I have the first one is vesting. What are they actually using words language and actions that are actually demonstrating that they're interested in you're being successful along with them right? The second one is longevity are they using action words and language it says are looking for long standing relationship. Three is the reliability which we're just talking about, which is a combination of competence and diligence actions, actions is that whole has patterns of repeated behaviors if I see us do something 234 times the likelihood of you doing the same way five or six times is pretty dang high. Five is language or they use so in the code of trust I just went through the four things I love to use his language you Am I seeking the thoughts and opinions talking to their properties validate your choices? Are they using that now with me? So I want to see if they're actually demonstrating value in relation me And finally, the last one is stability, emotional stability. So when faced with stress, anxiety and all the negative emotions do they maintain the cognitive thought process where they go off the rails and they become unpredictable so you don't have to have all six of those signs but if you have one or two really really strong in a certain lane that's also important just because they can do something in one area doesn't mean you can trust them at all. I think I use last time ago I love using the the flying scenario you know, I like the pizza great guy we got you know, we have this area in common but you know, piece on a pilot and I am I throw the keys so plain, you know, we're gonna die. Yes, so I love keeping that very fragmented, you know, segments that I should say in lanes so I can understand what things I could, you know, trust you with, you know, predict your behavior with what things I should stay away from, again for the whole purpose, maintaining a great healthy relationship.

Pete Turner  14:44  
That is going back a little bit of time and it kind of covers back to the past book, but I think it's an important thing to point out is trust is measurable, and it has different elements to it. So report will be for me a subset of Trust, and then you can have low risk trust. And then you can say, Hey, I'm going to give you a shot like you're extending someone trust doesn't mean you have it. You're kind of like, Here, I'll invest this in this relationship. And if you return back a response that I expect, now we have trust. And so you, you take that motion and flip it around, and you watch your partner. And you see, do they respond, like you said, in a pattern that makes sense to me? And if not, you slow down, you say, hey, you're not taking this action that should be beneficial to you? Why is that?

Robin Dreeke  15:31  
Right? And you don't judge it, you know, it keeps going to the core thing. It's like, All right, we're falling short in a lane here. You know, is that because of my lack of instruction and training I provided is because you're not invested with with us and our priorities is that because you're looking for this as a short term goal, or vice, a long term engagement, you know, there's all these different things and it what it does is keeps you thinking and focused on them rather than have an emotional reaction response where you just want to get angry. I just love it, too. Death because again, it again, it keeps you cognitive, it keeps you thinking and keeps that horrible emotional hijacking from happening to you and and also to them because then, because when they don't fear being ostracized they don't fear being shoved down to the tribe, then they're going to perform their best as well.

Pete Turner  16:16  
Boy being shoved out of the tribe. That's powerful. It is, I mean, especially like for folks in the worlds that I've worked in, standing out, get you killed. And, you know, they make communal decisions, you don't flaunt your wealth, you know, you keep your head below the other heads so you don't get your head chopped off.

Robin Dreeke  16:35  
Right. But my philosophy is always Don't be the first line and don't be the last right.

Pete Turner  16:41  
In chapter one, you talk about looking for signs of desperation. I wanted to ask you about that because where I'm at, there's a lot of desperate people. And you are trying to sort out like maybe this is their one chance to talk to an American so they'll say and do anything to extend that conversation because it might mean money. Their life, whatever.

Robin Dreeke  17:01  
Yeah. Yeah, that's a that's a rough one. Because you're exactly right. When people are destined I face this a lot when I was in New York, you know, working my first couple years there because we had we had some potential confidential human sources. And we actually had one or two that had been on board with us for a number of years, but their access had fallen off. And then they were getting pretty substantial sustained payments from us, which they actually started making a part of their living style. And when you when they when their access started waning, and now you have it was a worst case scenario, everything because their access is waiting. So they're desperate to provide information. So they start providing open source stuff that you can get anywhere, right, and they're and they're trying to pass it off as insider knowledge. And then when you actually have handlers that are emotionally vested in in the success of the relationship and the case. Now they're actually believing the shit because they're trying to you know, bolster Their own careers and value of what it is they're doing instead of having objective look at what's going on. So yeah, desperation to be bad on for a lot of people.

Pete Turner  18:08  
What would it so you're saying access so guys like us we look for placement and access, you can discuss that another time. But that's a key thing that that's like that's our trading stock. That's what we want to find someone who's got placement and access to the information or people we need to meet with. But as that access or that placement changes, you know, how do you set that person down? And and not use them as much? How do you you know, we say terminate with prejudice or whatever. But you still have to live and work in New York, you know,

Robin Dreeke  18:40  
yeah. So I always had, I always looked at it kind of differently. I looked at from the point of view, like, whether it was someone that actually walked in, you know, and contacted me to volunteer, they didn't have access to anything yet, or with someone that last access, but it was still willing to be a patriot. I always looked at as it's my obligation to help you find Job. Yeah, you know, if you're, if you're trying to do something patriotic, whether you had access and lost it or you don't have it, you're trying to get it. Let's come up with operations together based on what my knowledge I have. And based what you naturally do that we can kind of collide these things together, it might happen in a couple days might happen in a couple weeks, or maybe a couple years, but I'll maintain contact, and I'll keep sensing, what I always do is I keep sensitizing them towards areas of interest in priorities that we have an Intel gaps, knowledge gaps, and I sensitize this network, you know, because if not today, maybe tomorrow and again, if they are if they want to desperately be of help and resource, they might not be the right person, but they're going to know somebody knows someone kind of thing so they enjoy becoming a conduit and a facilitator of other things and other people. So I would never, I never had an instance where I cut someone off set up, you know what I'm done with you because, again, I treat everyone as as a great human being. And if you're willing to do something that puts yourself at, you know, at a disadvantage either professionally or personally. To do something for national security, I will I never treated anyone like that. I just, you know, I can honestly tell you, every human being that I ever worked with, I could pick up a phone and still call half of them right now and we're still great friends. Oh, hell, I'm still in touch with half of them right now already, you know because again, I didn't work the world of terrorism or or crime I worked counterintelligence. And these people are very, very good human beings. Man, right, even in the book, you know, so I talked about a number of them in the book and one of them you know, the one that's based off the world were preventing world war three scenario and the book is called the non I was literally email them two days ago.

Pete Turner  20:39  
Yeah, yeah. And it won't surprise you. I'm in the same boat where even if I don't have continued contact, if I showed up in certain parts of Iraq, I would be open with open arms like this. Welcome back. They would love to see me you know, because you never abused people.

Robin Dreeke  20:54  
Yeah, it was real human beings are real, you know, and it's See I had the benefit of a Generally, you know, since I'm domestic, I had the ability to be patient. And so patience goes a long way. And I know that's why the fact that you're able to do it is I know anytime your own office, you know, you're you're on a time constraint, a lot of times you need to action itself fast. It's very, very, that's, that's the most challenging situations to do it in. Because you have to build relationships on a tempo. That's might not be the template the other person wants. But you mitigate that, I think, what you probably did that you mitigate that through transparency, you know, so because if you otherwise you're manipulating time, and that looks control to someone else, and shields go up. But if you can be transparent with the fact that Listen, I need something now because of X, Y, and Z. Well, now you're transparent. You got to have the kind of time constraint and now you empower them with choice but how to move forward. You know, one of the things I've tried to do is I tried to bring in like I would stop myself and you know, we've talked about this. I've learned all this by making all the mistakes and making this heated I call my books my manuals on how not to be the moron I was born to be.

Pete Turner  22:05  
Yeah, my, my, my bonsai tree of life and mistakes is just a stick now, like, prune off.

Robin Dreeke  22:13  
It's really good.

Pete Turner  22:15  
But I would I would try to like what, what what's normal in this situation like, I can't just show up at some government officials desk, unannounced with a bunch of dudes with guns and expect to have a meeting whatever I want. So I started saying, Hey, can I get some of your time when you've got it? And they would go Holy shit, you're asking me for an appointment? Well, you know, I've got a budget meeting and I'm like, Oh, yeah, budget got it. Yeah. When When can I come in and not be in your bother. But you know, hopefully in the next week, and then they would always apply to me and then I would say, you know, I got to be very careful about this because you know, my supposed to give you advance notice. So I would validate the trust that I extended them and they would always return it back, always, always every single time

Robin Dreeke  22:59  
and so Is you started out with us that fourth step I have empower them with choice, I did the same exact thing, you know, because you will get choices the people that we want to affiliate with and that we want to value I my my final statement I always left everyone with was and if you don't want any more contact from me, just let me know. And I'll make a note never to bother you again. Yeah, and I've never had anyone walk away. I'm that freaks people out. It's like, Oh, you can't tell them you can walk away. But why not? If they don't want to? Yeah, I don't want to I don't want to 5% or I want 120% or, you know, and I want them to know, you know, the other thing I always made sure to is, especially up the first context, I say, please, if you have any questions, let me know. Because the worst thing that can happen is you walk away and you save yourself. I wonder what he really wanted? Yeah. Because then you're not trusting me then you don't think I'm transparent and open and that that's that's a deal breaker, you know? And so these are these are all what I call relationship accelerators. You know, when you're this kind of transparent, and and again, if I can't be transparent about something because it's classified or because it needs to protect people, I can tell you I can't be transparent because of this and You're still be straight. It's pretty incredible.

Pete Turner  24:03  
Yeah, I had a sense for, I could build reliably build trust with a partner in a foreign country. It would take, let's say, 90 days, that's how long it took before. And yet we're talking like high risk trust where I will, I will go do things. It didn't mean I didn't do things were risky before that, but that's when I knew I reliably had it because I'd gone through the process now, could I have done it faster? Maybe. But there were plenty of times when I thought I had trust. And then I realized later on, oh, my God, now I have it. But what did I have before you know, you have a lower level? Talk a little bit about how do you validate that trust and those behaviors that you were talking about earlier? put that together and in a way that we can understand it?

Robin Dreeke  24:51  
Where you celebrate it?

Pete Turner  24:52  
Yeah, like like to get trust to build trust reliably to test it. And to do it as you know as quickly as is, is normal. possible.

Robin Dreeke  25:01  
So the accelerated so it's kind of looking at the question in two parts. The first are what I call relationship accelerators. And you know, if you need to develop trust and relationship rapidly, you know, method I'm going to tell exactly where I get this from this guy by the name of jack Shafer, who was on my behavioral team with me wrote the book called the light switch. And when we were on the team together, he came up with these these things he goes, the first thing you can do is time, you know, you know, spend, the more time you spend with someone, the greater the accelerator, you know, so you can't be you know, a five minute meeting. It's got to be like an hour long meeting on the second. The second is proximity. Are you are you communicating via snail mail via text via email or in person? You know, the, the closer the proximity, the greater the accelerator, and the third, which is going to kind of link then to the other area you're talking about that is intensity? What topics of conversation are you talking about, that you're relying upon on each other for, you know, so the deeper those start going and the more that people have on the line, those intensive fires where now you have shared common backgrounds, you have shared common stress those relationship intensifiers. And so the test where I would say is that the degree of willingness and pushback you get or don't get when the intensifiers get introduced, so, I would, I would call it just a willingness and that again, are we at 5% of wanting to do something or we 120% I'd say you you have that high degree when they're coming up with ideas that might not be in their personal professional best interest. They're willing to do it anyway.

Pete Turner  26:40  
Hey, this is Pete a Turner from lions rock productions. We create podcasts around here and if you your brand or your company want to figure out how to do a podcast, just talk to me. I'll give you the advice on the right gear. The best plan is show you how to take a podcast that makes sense for you that sustainable, that scalable and fun. Hit me up at Pete at brick Down show calm. Let me help I want to hear about it.

Robin Dreeke  27:03  
It might not be in their personal professional best interest, but they're willing to do it anyway. I'd say that's the highest degree.

Pete Turner  27:08  
Yeah, no, I think you're right. And and I use the common tool sort of within, but some part of what you were saying is, it's just fence joining like, we're both building fences. But you see me build my fence, I see you build yours. And the sooner I can start to go, Oh, you have a daughter, I have a daughter. What do you do with your daughter for fun, you know, and you start joining your fences together until now you're building a fence together?

Robin Dreeke  27:34  
Yeah. And that's a sign one in size of people vesting, you know, how vested are they in your success as much as they are in their own? Are they coming up with ideas? Or in other words, are they joining fences of your fences. And I remember, you know, the, one of my first recruitments I ever did was a foreign intelligence officer from I don't want to give away too much but it was from a former Soviet Republic. You know, one of the one of the Stalin like things and I remember, we just talks are great bonding because we both have kids. I think one of those common things I talked about anyone from any part of the world as my two favorites are I talked about children, because I suffer proud parents syndrome. You know, I got two kids, my son's at the Naval Academy daughters graduate from George Mason as a nurse, you know, in a couple months, you know, and so you either were a kid have kids, no kids, you know, or you were a child yourself growing up, you know, so I looked up, because the other one is also family traditions. You know, growing up, we don't have necessarily the same family traditions, but you have a tradition of some sort. You know, I love hearing about traditions, because we can share our traditions together, and maybe overlap a few of them. So, those I love making those connections like that, and then there's and they're great intensifiers.

Pete Turner  28:42  
In your book, I think it's a chapter to the takeaway part, you start to break down and you do it in the chapter as well. Intuition, and people often talk about your gut and how they're good at sizing it up. But, you know, let me see if I could say this, right. Got to me equals emotion and emotion, often, you know, fallible. What are your thoughts?

Robin Dreeke  29:06  
Absolutely, man. I never delve into the world of politics openly just because, you know, as soon as you take a side, half the world's going to line up against you, and it's gonna get really nasty and fast these days. That being said, let's talk about Trump briefly. All right, not politically. But let's take a look at you know, he, you know, here's my theory why Trump is so divisive. And it's not because of any now people can argue this is not because of anything he did after he was elected. It's because he was so well known before. I think he was the most well known presidential candidate in our history prior to being a candidate. And so before that, what happened was, people either chose to like him or dislike him. And once you like someone, everything they say do you're in favor of. Once you dislike someone, there's nothing they can say or do that you agree with. Right? And So therein lies a great divide before he even became president. Right? And I test this theory all time. He's like, uh, even with my daughter, I asked my daughter the other day, said, Hey, you know, as I'm testing this out, because I've written an article on this, you know, try not be political, but try to analyze why so divisive. And because because people are kind of laying it on on his language he's using now. Okay, but I'm saying it happened long before then it happened, because that's liking people had an intuition. And once they decide, they like someone or dislike something that's emotional, and all the things they do the cut of the thoughtful things, they're not even being regarded. And so that's, that's my theory there. So it kind of goes into that thing we're just talking about it's intuition. It's a deal breaker, because once you use intuition, you might be right, you might be wrong, but it's not based on any observable data or facts. It's based on a gut feeling and, and it's based on our morals, our own ethics. And I mean, most people like people because of morals and ethics and having similar ones If you display this similar ones, there's nothing you can do about it from that point. I mean, I know very few people can overcome disliking someone and actually pay attention to the actual content of their delivery.

Pete Turner  31:12  
But there is something that you can perceive even if it's subconsciously about people. I mean, there is something to the intuition, the gut. Yeah, people talk about it all the time. How do you factor in that? I mean, you don't want to ignore your sense of something because you could be detecting a problem.

Robin Dreeke  31:29  
Sure, I think if you categorize you know, your emotions you have and can be analytical about it, it can work very effectively for you. So here's another piece of intuition that people have that is actually can be extremely accurate. And that is congruence I call congruence between the words being said and the nonverbal language you're getting along with it. You know, this is like the creepy car salesman. You know, the guy is saying all the right things and you think you're really great wordsmith and you're going to listen to all the things he's saying wrong, but he's saying I'm completely grateful. Why don't I trust it was because it's non verbals were saying I'm going to take advantage of you and steal your money. So you know, as human beings, we, we always pick up on nonverbal cues. And when our words are congruent with our nonverbal cues, that's our intuition that we can trust them. And that can actually is pretty accurate, you know, but if we can give it the label and meaning before time, we can actually give it some more data and some more substance. And so what happens is people kind of group their intuition all into one, when actually there's a lot of things I think that play into intuition liking someone, also nonverbal cues, language, all these things. So if you can start again, giving things lanes so you exactly know where you stand, but also the most important thing I think we can all do is try to do any of this alone. Yeah, always takes a beta tester. It takes a team it takes groups that are individuals that are objective and not emotionally vested in something that someone else might not be. So that's why I'm good at doing a lot of this stuff. But anytime is something that consequences comes up where it's going to be a communication with someone in any way that's going to be a little bit out of the normal, a little bit more important. Before I do anything. I'm always I'm beta testing it. I'm having someone Listen to me do it feedback. I'm having them delivered to me so I can see how it feels coming back at me, role playing. Role Playing is so vitally important to this to give it the best most thorough test you possibly can before you roll it out. I

Pete Turner  33:29  
totally agree. What's up brother surprise. I would often I mean, if you saw, I always said like, if you saw me working, you would never know us working, you know, because it would look like us having a great conversation with someone. And if you saw me on the camp, I was probably talking out loud to myself working through questions. And I started the outcome. And then I worked my way up the conversation chain. So if I want to know where the bombs I don't say, where the bombs you know, I figure out the 10 questions that lead up to the obvious thing. We're like, oh, let me tell you where the bombs are, you know, like, and I'm using a very simplistic answer. I mean, there's, there's a lot of outcomes I'm looking for. And so there's all these conversation streams that I'm trying to get into. But again, yeah, through trust and everything else, you know. So

Robin Dreeke  34:16  
I want the funny thing is that you're doing it very easily because you know, where the bombs what's that question actually answering and being part of its being part of his safety, security, prosperity, either for himself or his or his family? So the discovery questions you're asking is, basically, in some way, you're saying, is safety, the security and prosperity important for you and your family and your community? Yeah. And so you're having him lead himself down the fact that he's discovering that, wow, if I share where these bombs are, my priority is going to be taken care of. That's a good idea to do

Pete Turner  34:50  
this. Another tool I would use is I would try to not be the smartest guy in the room. And if I felt like I knew everything, I would try to wipe that clean, and start asking questions and I'll give you an example. I was talking with an elder. And we were talking about his priorities. And he said, female education for young girls is the most important thing in the valley. But first, we have to start with the boys. And how I easily could have wrote that down and been done with it and dismissed it. But I said, done that idea. I understand that because you're saying, girls under one priority, but you have to start with boys. And he said, Well, really, security comes before all of that. But boys, right now have to work. They have to be educated, they have to have to have two girls are harder. So I'm going to put a lot of effort into girls, but it can't come before the boys because that's just will that will never work here culturally. Right. So whenever we approached any kind of female engagement with education, I had to keep that in mind as a social norm and that whole valley the whole region, because if you over pushed girls, you were going to compromise everything.

Robin Dreeke  35:54  
Yeah, Diamond and this is this goes to the heart and core of how you connect with anyone. You can't judge their context. Yeah, that's it. You know, you know, I, I, I talked about this a lot too, you know, anytime uh, you know, you did again you did your stuff oconus I did my oconus but anytime a conflict broke out anywhere in the world, the first thing the FBI did is have to interview everyone from that country here. And most you know, I remember when the Iraqi war broke out, you know, we had to interview every Iraqi in New York you know, New York tri state area, you know, and if you go in with a judgmental context of them why would they want to talk to you you know, always ask myself so why should someone want to talk to me? Yes. Who it is because I'm seeking their thoughts and opinions I'm talking in terms of their priorities I validating without judging them and I'm giving them choices Yeah. And and yeah, it's an after its people ask you so how do you not judge some wise it will spend 21 years practicing not judging someone because here's the guarantee the second you judgment, they're never going to share with you. Yeah. And what's the goal? save lives, sell your product become better brands be a better father. I mean, it's these are such simple things. Stop judging. Yeah, yeah. And the other great thing is you understand this too. It doesn't mean I'm agreeing with you. Right? It means I'm seeking to understand you huge difference between the two difference.

Pete Turner  37:17  
Yeah, huge difference. I always remind others like when I'm, we're on patrols, but, you know, we don't know if we would be any different given the circumstances of growing up rice.

Robin Dreeke  37:26  
Most likely all my shoes, you know, yeah.

Pete Turner  37:29  
It's great to say I would never but go be a professional athlete on the cusp of greatness and not take that pill. Like, there's 10s of billions of dollars waiting for you if you do this. You know, that's,

Robin Dreeke  37:42  
I love doing this with cops all the time too. I mean, I always you know, when I'm talking to law enforcement, I always I generally asked Is it How many of you have gotten someone to confess when it wasn't in their best interest and it locked them up all the hands go up? It's a great How many of you actually had the people you locked up look you up first when they got out of jail to share with you how you think? change our lives and a lot of hands go up. I said, Is it because you sat there and judge them? Or you were or were you a resource for them

Pete Turner  38:09  
a clapping but we got lots of drop the bikes all over

Robin Dreeke  38:13  
now it's it's it's again it goes down to the elusive obvious, you know every now and then I'm asked you know about what I think about elicitation techniques and you know the six months school we have are doing interviewing, and it it befuddles me sometimes that Yeah, elicitation works, you can do it, but you're going to get a short term gain for long term loss and brand, which is fine again, you just have to know the cause and effect what you're doing. Yeah, and know that hey, if I need a short term gain and I willing to ruin brand, because I need this bit of information that we can utilize these techniques, but just know if you're going to destroy a lot that the collateral damage is gonna be pretty massive. And at the same time, though, you know, I always say so why do we spend so much time learning how to deceive someone and manipulate them when all we're trying to do is build healthy relationships. So actually, we don't have to do that anymore. Right. So,

Pete Turner  39:04  
yeah, yeah, it's sophisticated. How long does it take for the agents that you work with and train? How long did it take for them to be practically able to do that in the field? I don't mean schoolhouse trained and knowledgeable. I mean, actually capable journeymen.

Robin Dreeke  39:20  
I really think it depends on the office in which you're assigned, and the things you're assigned to do. Like, I'll be the first one to tell you. I was a horrible case agent, you know, investigator. That's not my thing. I was an operator, you know, because, you know, some people, I had no idea what I was doing when I joined I just as another way to continue my, my service to my country. I had no idea what the FBI did. I had no idea what counterintelligence was. And, you know, I was in a place where I had lots of opportunities for operations. You know, my job, you know, I think, you know, my job is to buy a lotto ticket every day because if you actually recruit a foreign intelligence officers like hitting lotto Yeah, that rare and that beneficial my job every day was to buy a lotto ticket. It create operations. So I could maybe be a resource for in line with their priorities and their priorities aligned with ours. That's all you're looking for every day. Yeah. So I had lots of practice with operations, interviewing. I fair to middlin on that, because, you know, interviewing was a part of what I did. But my whole thing was I needed to recruit confidential human sources, which is not just the facts, man, this is actually build it. So my thing was building relationships. Now, other people that worked pure espionage investigations, that were just nothing but you know, looking for facts, looking for data and investigating. They had very little human source development backgrounds, because they're actually not doing that's not what the job and role was. So it's a different skill set entirely. It's not that it's unlearned or not learn, it's just different. So really dependent, I would say on what you're signed to do, and then stick to it. You know, I think the adage is ever knows you know, what, if you do something about 10,000 times or 10 years, that's kind of when you start getting good at it. So guys Girls, I would stay in the field for at least 10 years, no matter what discipline they're working, if they were about their business, I say that's a fair, fair place to say they're good. Yeah. But it was somewhere between that five and 10 year period is where you start becoming a journeyman at it. If you ran to management prior to that, good luck, good luck. You know, they start managing and trying to lead people that have skill sets that are beyond theirs. It's it's it really because again, it comes down to what your how's your ability to communicate and build relationships with others rather than, you know, it's not just my organization, any organization, you know, sometimes people run to leadership and management because they suck at being the first entry level.

Pete Turner  41:43  
Well, I mean, you look at what our jobs are, you know, there's no syllabus, there's no checklist. You just have to go out and you're like, I don't know anybody in this whole town and like your whole, your whole book starts off with Friend or Foe and trying to connect you know,

Robin Dreeke  41:59  
and and And that's what I always try to, you know, make the complex as easy as possible. I think we kind of bring us full circle to what you said at the beginning with all this in that train and everything well really what's it all come down to? How do you build relationships? And there is a you know, some people are natural leaders in the world, they do it naturally. They're born with the skill set, they're built, they're born knowing how to make a conversation about everyone else but themselves. And for guys like me that I was born wanting to be that kind of person but really sucked at it bad. You know, the, the only gift I was born with, I think, was enough humility to know I sucked. I didn't blame. I didn't blame my failures on anyone else. I was like, all right, I suck. What do I need to do and who do I need to study and, and just being placed in positions where I had to eventually teach others to do this? It was me teaching how to be like, you know, in the book, his name is Jesse thorn. You know how to teach people how to be Jesse. How do I do that? You know, and so So instead of someone just saying hey just be a better leader be a better interviewer be better recruiting people. All right, exactly how you said assume knowledge well build rapport and then do this all right, build report go give me the steps. Exactly. Now I can I can tell you exactly what to do. How to build trust easy secret thoughts and opinions talking to is probably validate without judging you empower your choices. 10 steps build real quick for you the time constraints, fucking terms or price commenting on verbal slow rate of speech. I mean, I can rattle the shit off. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, it was before for

Pete Turner  43:31  
build rapport. How go? You know? Yeah,

Robin Dreeke  43:34  
yeah, exactly. And then

Pete Turner  43:36  
who's running? Who? Because if I think I can build rapport reliably in two minutes or something, you know, Hey, how are your kids? Oh, great. Well, let's get down to business. Fuck, there's no rapport there. You know?

Robin Dreeke  43:47  
Yeah. It's like my best test for that to see people ask me sometimes. So how do you know someone's not trying to manipulate you? And I said, that's pretty easy. I'm looking for transparency. Yeah, you know, cuz I asked a lot of questions because I I am a moron. It takes me long, I'm slow on the uptake. And if I'm asking you questions, because I'm looking for understanding, and you're not willing to share and give me an understanding, so you have a lack of transparency, that means you, we don't have trust in this lane. And I'll stop engaging, you know, so we don't even get to the point where I'm trying to where someone's trying to manipulate me because I just stopped, because you're not looking for a healthy relationship. In this lane. I'm done.

Pete Turner  44:25  
Yeah. I mix in some of your buddy Joan of arrows, stuff to like his stuff on language. And if you're telling me that you want to hug me, but you're closed off or your heads turned, I know that I'm not at all a master body language. There's things that I can see in the scream at me. But if I see things I don't understand, that's what I just I leave with questions. You know, yeah, there's something here I'm missing. Let me write my missing I might ask you that. What am I missing? And the person will say, What do you mean? And I'm like, just, you know, want to make sure I understood, you know, and then all of a sudden you have this whole different conversation going on. You've taken, you know, I talked about like riding like a wild pony. And I don't bridle it, I don't saddle it, I just kind of try to figure out how to ride it. And then slowly, I get it to go where I want it to go. But within what it's comfortable doing, you know, it's on its path. I let us

Robin Dreeke  45:15  
What did you just do you just met conversation about them? In other words, you've you've picked up on something that you made them uncomfortable about? Because you picked up a nonverbal of stress? Yes. Well, there's an eyebrow compression lip compression, a blocking lady Nathan coming and you picked up that you induce stress by something you said or did or something the environment. And now you're questioning, what did I do wrong by you? Yeah. Who's that about? It's about them. And people, you know, and the thing I love about this, too, is people aren't looking for you to be perfect. They're looking for you to make an effort. And when you demonstrate these kinds of efforts, it's 99% of people the world are not and all you're going to be is that one person that is

Pete Turner  45:53  
we had a guy in Baghdad, we were looking for the Iranians because they were always trying to play the FPS. Thanks, General soleimani We asked this guy about the Iranians and his arm climbed up, like wrapped around a pole. Like he locked himself in with his arm and then his leg as if he was like human IV. And he braced himself. And I was like, holy shit, this guy is alerted. And so I slowed everything down. And ultimately, all we got was there in the immediate area. And that was all we got. But that was all we really needed was just to know that hey, there could be trouble ahead. You know,

Robin Dreeke  46:31  
yeah. And you can just buy that reaction alone. You know how imminent it is, too. Right. I mean, that is a massive reaction that is a massive nonverbal reaction. That action saying danger close right there. Yes.

Pete Turner  46:43  
And that's why I slow down. But what this is about sort of time we're like, where the bombs your your two questions away from that, you know, and

Robin Dreeke  46:51  
yeah, trying to think because

Pete Turner  46:52  
there could have been something in a tree that could have been sitting in a car, we didn't know what it was. And we were able to reckon with what happened but ultimately, that's happened, ultimately, but that guy was terrified of Iran. Oh, yeah. The second that word came out. I didn't have to speak in the Arabic to see he had a problem with it.

Robin Dreeke  47:09  
So fight is so fine, too. You know, when you you know, the first thing that popped into my mind, you know what, you know, the questions I'd be I will become curious about is who in your immediate family or close relations are you most terrified for right now? Yeah. Yeah, you know, because now that gets them again that gets them talking about their priorities again, and it's going to get them wanting to share, you know, it's it's funny that how do you make that, you know, kind of keeps going back to talking to other people about what's important to them. And so start build that muscle memory about around their, their circle of importance. Yeah. All you're doing is being a resource for them protecting what's most important to them.

Pete Turner  47:48  
Yeah, it's terrifying here. What keeps you up at night?

Robin Dreeke  47:51  
Oh, my God. What a great question.

Pete Turner  47:54  
That's a great question. Yeah. And I set it up with the terrifying part. I could take that out, but what can keeps you up at night. And every parent has an answer to that.

Robin Dreeke  48:04  
Right? And also by shaming, terrifying, they might not see a terrifying but the fact that you're revealing to you it is yeah, it shows an openness and agreeableness. So again, you're showing, again, transparency without putting on a false or fake front. So it's making you look vulnerable. And when people look vulnerable, but have competence, that builds trust.

Pete Turner  48:22  
Yeah. And like I could add in the context with kids, you know, man, I'm a parent. I don't know, I don't know what I would do with my kid. How do you do this? How do you how do you figure out what's safe for your kid to do? And then let them just expand from there now I'm talking about kids in school, you know, without without coming in and saying, How often does your kid go to school like, oh my god. But that's that's what the military wants you to ask. But I find out much more detailed things. Hey, tell me how this really quickly here so I don't want to take a bunch of time. Tell me how this stuff applies day to day for regular folks who aren't counter-intelligence people.

Robin Dreeke  48:58  
Sure. You know, it Most notably I think it really helps mostly in the workplace you know sighs some people have I got a I got a every chapter you know each one of these signs I talked about all the different tells of of what is good that you're looking for in a relationship with someone has given you some some bad that can happen as well you know and so like the first one you know sign one vested you know I you know what I remember the first boss I worked for New York City What a great guy like every day he's asking me about you know where I saw myself in five years you know what kind of training he's always looking for opportunities get me into training so I can be successful he's looking to you know, making sure I was a good fit on the squad as not he want to see where I go, he's making sure I had a good car to get home and, you know, every night, you know, to and from the city from you know, so this guy was actually looking out from us best in my career future and also longevity. He wanted to, you know, see what he could do to eventually get me to be the primary relief on a squad, you know, so sell that kind of things investing. We're really good. Until you the reliability one is really high as well as competence and diligence. You know, we see this all the time. You know, I remember right before I retired, has has helped a guy up that was trying to put a conference together. And he was chosen first because he had a lot of good skill sets and technically in the area that we're trying to have this thing and it was really with you a visa was a drone conference, and what man he had zero people skills and so his organizational people skills are horrendous and this thing started falling apart. And that combined with his lack of diligence on this for the sign as well, I mean, he was man he and we've seen this all seen as a work you know it could you talk a mile a minute and sell, you know, snow to the snowman, but when it actually came to doing something, it was vacant, you know, so that's, that's a reliability sign. So we'll see these things you know, positively negatively all over our lives. And so what all this book does is helps you understand others at that deeper level in all these different situations so you can reasonably assess what can you expect from this person. So you manage your own expectations so you live a calmer, easier peaceful life and know who you can, you know, align with and who you should probably avoid.

Pete Turner  51:17  
The book is called sizing people up. It's written by Robin shriek and it's just all I've got the book right here in my hand, I'm showing it to Robin, thank you for this. By the way, if you guys want to understand how guys like us do what we do in these impossible situations, code of trust sizing people up these, these two books will give you a lot of homework if you want to improve your relationships at work with peers or whatever it is, and and you'll have a fascinating read because it's just, He's practically done this stuff. He's taught people how to do it, there is no better way to master something. And you can hear us talking and agreeing and common experience. You know, we didn't know each other two years ago, but we had very Similar paths and our fence building our fence joining has gone on because we've done this stuff we've seen it I can attest you guys should buy this book you will absolutely love it.

Robin Dreeke  52:11  
Thanks a lot and the greatest thing I did with this one to make it easy on everyone my friend that did it for myself at the end of each chapter is a chapter debriefing where you got all the signs you got the 10 tells four to 10 tells against you got a key quote key message and so I literally I copied and printed out the chapter debriefings for each of the six signs that I carry with me because in there

Pete Turner  52:33  
there's a lot in there it's super dense with and that was going through the book as we were talking and yeah, these briefings are great. I love Yeah, I love them too. Well listen, I appreciate you coming on. Thank you so much. I'll let you get back to the rest of your day. Everybody go out by sizing people up and or code of trust. You're gonna buy both of them anyhow. So just buy the two pack. Man. Thank you, Robin. I just can't say I love it. I love getting a chance to hang out and talk with you. And I'm so fortunate that that we got a chance to find We meet and cross paths face to face but our professional paths are just so similar and I just love it.

Robin Dreeke  53:08  
Absolutely Pete me to get goosebumps every time I talk to you. It's like It's like talking to a brother from another mother.