Ron Self - Marine Force Recon, A Boy Soldier's Life

Ron Self - Marine Force Recon, A Boy Soldier's Life - Ron Self started life with a father telling him he was the cause of all his family's problems. Then it changed irrevocably in a gunfight Ron participated in on a freeway in the US; not a combat zone. Ron was raised in military academies and ultimately served in the Marines. 

Ron has founded the Veterans Healing Veterans non-profit. 

Check out Ron's Ted Talk https://youtu.be/IfG7WV-bN6Y

Ron went to prison for attempted murder. He reached the brink and jumped...of the edge of the world...with a literal rope around his neck-it snapped and his rebound began there. Ron got better, got back, and is now fighting for 

increased veterans. 

Ron is one of our featured people for the Prison Chronicles. As we get closer to releasing the series, we're adding in some of the featured members with bonus content. 

Haiku
Raised as a warrior
He was damned good at it too
But the damage done

Similar episodes:
Shaka Senghor https://youtu.be/s5TbVnYsHRA
Richard Bronson https://youtu.be/MBtLND9kwkg
Rudy Reyes https://youtu.be/I16CZL_jQR4

Join us in supporting Save the Brave as we battle PTSD. www.savethebrave.org​

Executive Producer/Host/Intro: Pete A. Turner https://youtu.be/mYoUxRJzXcA
Producer/Host: Dr Wilfred Reilly Producer:
Damjan Gjorgjiev ​ ​​​

The Break It Down Show is your favorite best, new podcast, featuring 5 episodes a week with great interviews highlighting world-class guests from a wide array of topics. Get in contact with Pete at www.peteaturner.com www.breakitdownshow.com Interview new podcast episode, experts, expertise. Listen to this podcast. Another great new episode. 5 new shows a week.

Transcripts

​Pete Turner  0:00  
Everybody Pete a Turner, executive producer and host of the break it down show. As we get closer and closer to the release of the prison Chronicles, we're starting to do the secondary things. Now one of those is that we're getting background shows on all of the guests that we feature in the prison Chronicles. One of the people in this series is a guy named Ron self, who was a former Marine force recon tip of the spear. Lots of deployment time kind of guy and Ron ultimately went to jail for attempted murder.

​Pete Turner  0:00  
Everybody Pete a Turner, executive producer and host of the break it down show. As we get closer and closer to the release of the prison Chronicles, we're starting to do the secondary things. Now one of those is that we're getting background shows on all of the guests that we feature in the prison Chronicles. One of the people in this series is a guy named Ron self, who was a former Marine force recon tip of the spear. Lots of deployment time kind of guy and Ron ultimately went to jail for attempted murder. And we talked about his journey from being a kid all the way to his redemption point and it gets intense. So you'll love this and this is be a little bit of a teaser for the upcoming prison Chronicles. I know that you guys will all want to hear Episode One is done Episode Two a squeezed in Episode Three is almost there. We're getting really close to having everything set up and ready to go. So Ron is a big part of that story. And I can't wait for you guys to hear his story. You think if you want to support the show, by the way, we're growing and growing like crazy on YouTube, so thank you so much for subscribing. I really appreciate all of you guys for doing that. But also in general. We we have appreciate all of your support, please continue to share, tell friends about it rate review. If you've got ideas for guests, let me know we're always looking and trying to figure out the next show. So definitely reach out, let me know what you think. Okay, one last thing, save the brave, save the brave org If you can go there and contribute me a small amount of money each month, that would be a huge help save the brave.org do that. In addition, if you're not going to do the save the brave thing, here's what I'm going to ask you to do think about charity as a gift, go to charity on top.org you can give charitable amounts of money to anybody. And basically it comes in the form of a gift card or an E card and they can then take that money let's say you give them $25 and they can say well, I'm gonna give this to the whatever charity it is. It can be anything they want. 1.8 million charities. So charity on top or think about charity as a gift, especially now when everybody's trying to figure things out. This might be a good time. All right, here comes Ron self,

Unknown Speaker  1:55  
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Unknown Speaker  2:09  
Gabby Reese is Rob bell. Hey, this is john Leon gray and

Pete Turner  2:12  
this is Pete a Turner.

Ron Self  2:16  
Hello, this is Ron self and you're listening to the break it down show. Yeah

Pete Turner  2:22  
I've ever drawn on because we're working on this prison Chronicles project and Ron holds down a big pillar of the story. At one point he was convicted of attempted murder, and did a number of years in jail, but he's also the veteran face of what we do. And I thought it would be important to tell his part of the story in more depth and slow down so that those folks that go through the prison Chronicles can learn more specifically about Ron because we don't spend a lot of time talking about your background. You will due to a couple of terrible incidents that you had to go through. But I just wanted to kind of get some background you know, you you start in the middle of doing Cody fingers the military early on as a little kid, and and in depth, you know, for decades you're in this world. So let's talk a little bit about your path along the way to becoming a badass marine recon warrior.

Ron Self  3:15  
Yeah, well, I think my story, you know, started like everybody's as a kid. And through doing this works, what I found out that I'm not that unique in my story, but my specific story is such that due to turbulence at home with the parents separating, so on and so forth, I went to live with my grandparents at the age of six, who doesn't want to live their grandparents. Come on, but again, because of the turmoil that was going on with my primary caregiver, my parents I was acting out in a way and I didn't know what that was really about. And my grandfather being a career army man, was aware of an experimental school at Fort Ord. It was open at the time where the Marines had a school there. It was basically Junior High High School college ROTC. from six years old on, and the participants in that school, that program were kids that were orphaned. They were kids like myself that, that weren't working out well with their parents at home, but also demonstrated some sort of ability, just for survival, common sense, but also had a bit of an aptitude. So from the age of six all the way through junior high high school, college, grad school, I was in these schools, then completed the formality of Marine Corps boot camp in, say, I went to boot camp October 87. Graduated Christmas, December 23. I think it was, or whatever day Christmas is on 1987. The concept behind the program was that by the time you completed the formality of boot camp, you were already trained, so that you immediately could send you downrange. You were deployable, you have more time out of you, you're in your 20s I was 22 at that time, and pretty much immediately went down range. I did go to Third Battalion first Marines. For a little while, we'll do some basic training there, raid company recon so on and so forth. And then just kind of got involved in some heavier stuff, real world operations. So yeah, that's the quick short of it.

Pete Turner  5:14  
When you look at your path like and how you evolved as a person, though, I know in the in prison Chronicles, we talk specifically about, you know, take making risky behaviors and and making choices that were, you know, clearly things that we can't do quota fingers, normal people would never do, you know, we tend to pick these really insane paths towards things. What is that born from in you? What do you what do you think where's the damage that allows you to disregard self at the level that you did

Ron Self  5:47  
that? That is a brilliant first question, and I'll make it concise where it's real simple. So one of the things I was talking about at the age of six, my father kneeled down, put his hands on my shoulders and looked me straight in the eye. clearly said you were a mistake. You should have never been born. You're the reason that your mother and I are getting divorced, and I'm going to Vietnam. He walked out the door and I never saw him again. Two weeks later, post hysterectomy, not knowing what that was all about my mother and hormonal imbalance stabbed me in the arm with a fork and said, You're just like your goddamn father. That night I ran out the door when stayed the night on the high school at the high school. Next morning, my grandpa picked me up. So that's how that's the story I ended up there. But more specifically to your question. That situation with my dad when I come to realize decades later instilled in me at a subconscious level, a need to seek out older authority father figures that if I worked hard enough, would not think I was a mistake. Now this is all going on in my mind. I wasn't really aware of what I was doing. Now in these military schools in the military itself. There's no shortage of noncommissioned officers and officers to try to impress so that that that really showed through it came out in all the schools and all the operations that I was involved in everything I did was suicidal type stuff. I, I had a chip on my shoulder the size of the rocket to browse my frickin planet Earth. And I was driven by that. And I have to say, I have a lot of medals for heroism. I got involved in a lot of shit when I was in the military, Marine Corps. But I wasn't any more heroic or brave than any other man. I just wasn't aware of what was driving me. And it was that moment in time, when dad said you were a mistake. Those four words changed my life.

Pete Turner  7:38  
How did you find that? Like you that took a lot of time?

Ron Self  7:42  
decades to get rightly? Yeah, no. It took me going to prison. It took me committing the crime that I did. It took me losing some very close, teammates overseas. And then when I came back in an effort to attempt to stop Somebody from getting murdered. I agreed to do it so that I can control it and nobody would get killed. And let's be real, by the way I could make $50,000 at the time I thought doing this. This was five months after I came back stateside. That went all fine and dandy right? This attempted that wasn't really an attempt. What I didn't count on that day though. While I'm on the freeway shooting at this guy's windows shield, but I didn't count on was the lady in a car, sitting next to Dr. Shoemaker and the look of horror and terror on her face when the windshield exploded and hear the gunshots. That's something I'd only ever seen in combat. The difference was we were there to stop the people that were causing that trauma. And on that day in that moment, it was a it was an absolute moral reset. And yeah, I denied being involved. But I did everything possible to get caught. lost my train of thought there because that's kind of heavy. So then I go to prison after that, and about 810 years into now in prison prisons are very violent and confrontational place in 1997 Gladiator wars are going on in Corcoran prison where the guards were setting up fights between people in the hole bringing friends into bed on him. And so I have a lot of shame and guilt about what I did and I had a lot of rage inside me. And so prison was okay for me for a while I was very much looking for all comers. I very much wanted somebody to take me out. But it just didn't work out that way. And after by background, how many years it just started sitting in a few self help groups. And when you're locked down when you get locked in a four by nine cell, everyday after decades, you're forced at some point, hopefully, to look at yourself and think and figure out how the hell did I go from getting presidential awards being a hero quote unquote, too. I'm in prison now for attempted murder. And the more I started to unpack that, and really delve deeply and use my own education to help me identify some things and patterns of thoughts, I realized it was that moment and that's when I tried to hang myself and failed. That's where in a TED talk I did, you could find on YouTube came out of that moment. What happened when the rope broke? And I was on my knees I you know, I went myself one day, put the rope around my neck, stepped off the toilet seat and had it attach to the locker. I remember I was hanging in there for about five minutes thinking Damn, how long is this going to take? If I had somewhere to go? When I succeeded? I even I laugh about that. It's like okay, what the fuck? How long is this gonna take? And then I blacked out. 45 minutes later I woke up on the floor. The rope around my neck broke. I have no idea it shouldn't broke for for braid rope made it out of a sheet soaked in water. So I've done 100 times. But it broke solarium on the, with this rope around my neck and rope burns. And just you know, as I say in the TED Talk, I've got a couple things, I felt the shame, time I attempted to kill myself and the shame of having failed. And I also realized there are other military people like me. And so I created this program. I spent the next year in the prison University project. It's a college program at San Quentin. They allowed me to participate in English 204 programs semester after semester for a year, and I developed the curriculum, and I developed a curriculum that would help me and in turn help other veterans like me. And yeah, it's the rest is history.

Pete Turner  11:44  
History. What's your What are your thoughts on Providence in that rope breaking? I mean, you soak and braid a homemade rope. It's still not supposed to break and I know you got a big thick neck, but come on, man. How, how do you attribute that happening?

Ron Self  12:00  
I've been in denial about that for a long time. I mean, I'm not a religious man per se, but I believe in a higher power. I'm half Native American, half Sicilian. I've always believed that there is a power. I'm just not arrogant enough to assign a gender or anything to that higher power apparent, but clearly the broke for a reason, right? I just I can't get around that. And frankly, there's things I've been involved in why I literally should be dead. And I'm not. It's one of those things you can't help but laugh. It's happened so many times to me. And then I find myself in a situation where I'm helping other veterans, and it's from prison. And strangely enough, prison is where I connected with a sense of humanity and compassion. And that's not something you typically would think you would find in prison. But for me, that's where I found it.

Pete Turner  12:55  
How is that?

Ron Self  12:59  
How is that How'd that happen? Honestly, it would not have happened completely if it wasn't for the wife of Dr. Shoemaker. In my first parole hearing, she read a letter where she and her family forgave me. And Dr. Shoemaker. Unfortunately, he died of cancer 2011 or 12. But he also forgave me and in that instance, where she forgave me. And while this was holy, I know this is not her intent and wholly unexpected. for her to forgive me for my actions on that day. It felt as though I was being forgiven for every sin I ever did in my life. I know that wasn't the intent. That wasn't the outcome. She's a very religious lady, a Christian. But in that moment, I felt somehow cleansed or purged. And I went back to myself and I wrote a letter to her indicating just that and that was when I was finally able to really forgive myself for what I did. Even though it was never my intent to kill anyone I was able to prevent. That's ultimately why I got out of prison that and creating this program, but ultimately forgiving myself. And then looking back over my military career, and some of the people that we engaged with some of the people that I thought, at that point time need to going more than anybody else in this in the history of mankind, some truly what I thought were evil people. But when I really looked back at some of those people's backgrounds and look at how they were raised and how they were taken away from their families at early age, I really realized how arrogant It wasn't me to buy into what I bought into. And I really believe that everybody, no matter who you are, is redeemable I think everyone has within them redemption. I think people just have to be afforded the opportunity to grasp that.

Pete Turner  14:59  
That's Spend some time with this thought too, because this is definitely one of the themes. And what I love about the prison Chronicles is, you guys have the actual real experiences. This is ground truth stuff. And you know, you and I were warriors, we've gone out we've done all the hard scene, all the crazy, but the ground truth is a reality. That's it's even, it's even more real than boots on the ground, because a lot of times, and you know, you get boots on the ground, half the people don't know what the hell they're doing. You know, like, I remember the first time in a firefight, right, when everything slowed down. And I'm like, Oh, now I know what I'm doing. You know?

Ron Self  15:38  
Yeah, no, it doesn't get a roll of that. Yeah, most of the people don't know what the hell's going on, or what they're doing. Yeah. Sometimes, like a firefight to scare the hell out of you and give you a reality check. What am I doing here?

Pete Turner  15:52  
Right, which is what we all say like, Ah, shit, god damn it, you know, but we have the ability because we've been shot at enough that we're able to operate in this area where no one is supposed to humanly operate normally because we've got this ground truth reality. And and so you all don't know each other. I mean you, you and Kenyatta are connected and that's how I got to you but, you know, you don't know Shaka some gore personally you don't know honor Reva Sean, you don't know these different guys, you guys have all said the same thing. People are redeemable. Everybody is worthy of rehabilitation. So, I love this about what the story is, is if we take that lens and instead of saying everybody needs to get punished, and then you just layer on more and more punishment, it doesn't appear to be a reliable path to receive recidivism. These aren't perfect solutions in any in any regard. But if we're going to look at a way to approach this, let's fail at rehabilitating everybody let's fail that allowing redemption to be a thing. Yeah.

Ron Self  16:58  
Well, right. Thanks for definitely changing. I mean, within California, I think the direction the correction system is definitely going is changing. Okay. And I, because of Ralph, he is the director of corrections, I'm actually allowed and thankful enough to be a part of that change. I mean, within two months of getting out of prison, I was able to go into Solano prison and start meeting with the men there and facilitating the bhp group. The program that I started now we're in six prisons, I go to four of them weekly. Right? I've met with the mental health team, I've been asked to speak at the mental health summit two times down Sacramento, on suicide, suicide prevention. They're desperately looking for ways to do what they do in a better way that's more productive for society, and the people within the prison system. And guys like Kenyatta man, I just, I lack the words to give him enough credit for his attitude and his mentality.

Pete Turner  18:00  
Yeah, I get that about him. He just he continues to give and redefine who he was growing up. All of us who have gone through these trials, you guys, particularly in prison, you you come out better people. But that is not always the path for everybody talk a little bit about what you experience with folks who aren't able to figure it out, or are in the process of figuring it out. What does that look like so we can get some reality because to say that things are changing, and people are all leaning on this problem in the right direction. I got to get everybody else caught up with what you're seeing and how we're getting there. So let's talk about the folks that are inside that struggle with the reality and the culpability with with whether it's their crime or just their their attitude, you know, their reckless behavior. And then let's talk a little bit about you know, where we're going.

Ron Self  18:51  
Well, I think part of the problem for self discovery and the ability to move on is shame, guilt and shame. A big part of it. I used to facilitate and I participated in a program called victim awareness, education bug. It's run through inside prison project IPP. And part of that program, one of the first things you do is you're essentially writing a crime impact report, you're writing a confession of what your crime is. Now imagine you're in prison for rape. And you're sitting in a group of men, usually 11 to 12 men per group, and it comes to your time to read your crime impact, and then you stay in that crime impacts day but on such and such day you raped someone or you molested someone that is incredibly and profoundly hard to do. And let me let me go on further to say something about that. as many years as I spent in combat, I absolutely in my mind knew that I knew what courage was. I had that lockdown. Nobody could tell me what courage was. I had that one under control, but actually They're sitting in a group in prison where masculinity is, you know, that's the word of the day. And men are sharing the stories and unburdening themselves of these tremendous, bad things that they did. That's courageous. I mean, that's truly courageous. And then to go a step further, when you go on to explore these guys stories, and there's a lot of empirical data that supports this, a lot of guys that are in prison for rape, and molestation have, in fact, been raped and molested themselves. That doesn't make it okay. It speaks to the story, or it speaks to the fact that we all have a history obviously, we all have backgrounds, people deal with them differently. Not everyone can step up and sit in these groups and do that. Right. So they stay in prison.

Pete Turner  20:52  
Or when they get out, they come back.

Ron Self  20:55  
They come back now the I see. I'm sure you are the statistics for people. sentenced to life coming back versus people with determinate sentences that have dates, meaning given a 20 year date for right 20, bank robberies or whatever. Not all of them, but a greater majority of the people that aren't looking at a life sentence don't feel they have to do the work. So they don't do the work. And therefore they don't they don't arrive at a place where they're any different when they came in. If anything, they become more hardened. I don't know how many guys that I've met in my job because I also work with transitional housing, who said to me, now, you know, when I asked him, so what kind of programming have you done? What kind of insights Have you developed since you've been in? I don't have to do any of that stuff. I got. I got a 10 year sentence. I'm doing my time. I'm waiting for the clock to run out. And now I need a place to live. And my replies, well, I'm sorry, you're not coming to work. I offer housing because that's not the mentality I want. Where we offer housing. I want to know that you have some discovery and that you can actually you can identify and articulate how and why you ended up making it decision that you did to put you in prison with a license. Or if you don't have a license, you got a 20 year since we you're not doing anything really.

Pete Turner  22:09  
It's just happened because the system is incentive to create these positive outcomes. I mean, that person's got their 10 years they're out and five, and honestly, you know, at least in terms of California, we're glad to have that person leave and open up a bed and create an open, you know, it's like, yeah, we want this person to get out. And we're done with all of that. It just seemed like it compels them to do the work that they have to do.

Ron Self  22:35  
Yeah, that's, yeah, that's a system and that they're working on changing that still flawed. They're still trying to change it. I like the model that I believe governor, the governor put forth that they were trying to implement and that was, nobody gets out of prison. You work your way out of prison. And until you do the work, you don't get out. I think that's the way it should be. Absolutely.

Pete Turner  23:01  
So you're saying like a bank robbery and a bank robbery comes with a standard sentence of 10 years, and then you can your actions can reduce or lengthen that that stay.

Ron Self  23:14  
Yeah, absolutely. And I don't even know about times, frankly, I think people need to genuinely stay where they're at until that nut gets cracked and they can articulate and truly connect and gain insight into how and why they made a decision that they did. I think everyone has the ability to do that. Some people it takes a lot longer. Right now I can think of a few names I'm not going to say that I want to they're just hard headed people that in we have to take into account this isn't just cut and dry, do the work or don't do the work. You have to take into account mental health. There's a lot of people when reagan I think it was back in the day that closed down a lot of the mental health hospitals. Well, those people have been defaulted in case to prison, and they shouldn't be in prison. I don't I couldn't even tell you how many people that called LPs and has outpatient. There are so many people that just need medical, mental health, medical attention, they need medication, they need appropriate medication, they need to be monitored. And that just doesn't happen to the degree with which it should for many, many people in prison, then their time is up and they provide them with 30 days of medicine, nowhere to live, they give them a voucher to stay at a hotel over the weekend or something. And I've met countless guys, it's like yeah, I committed a crime to come back because I just had no way to survive.

Pete Turner  24:39  
Yeah, like to never be solid that most people walk out of prison with less than $200 in their pocket.

Ron Self  24:45  
Yeah, that was an absolute It was funny to me. I you know, I'm parolee and you know, here's your $200 Gate money after 23 years in prison. You know, fortunately for me, yeah, fortunately for me As a veteran and the Marin County veteran's service officer, Sean Stephens, he came to the prison five, six years for I got out and he was kind of experimenting with me. We started filing claims service connection claims for guys that were in the military. You know, for everything you had coming. I ended up leaving with 100% service connected for all my injuries and everything that I had. From my military days. Yeah. So when I paroled, I paroled with a paycheck. And then on top of that, I created a program that's being funded by CDC, largely and other private donors. So I you know, that okay, that allowed me to then go back to the prison and help other people and one of the things that we focus on is making sure if you're an incarcerated veteran, you get what you have coming to you. And it's important to realize that incarcerated veterans say like myself 100% service connected now after 61 days of incarceration, I can only get 10% of that a month not to exceed $141 right now. That's okay. Because I have a wife and kids, I can do an apportionment for them to get the rest of that. So I can still give back and support my family to a degree, even from inside while I work on myself. Yeah, that's one of the things that we like to do is make sure that, you know, it saddens because I see, I'm only working with the veteran population, and veterans should never, there's no excuse for a veteran to paroled from prison and fail, because they have things available to them. They just need to know what those things are. The rest of the general population don't have those things. Right. And that's another contributing factor to to the recidivism rate, a veteran coming out of prison with an honorable or an O th, at a minimum, as grant per diem available to them through the VA, which is housing that is significant. If you have a house to go to a room and you're covered for a period of time while you get on your feet. That's a huge part of it, too. So there's no one answer to the recidivism rate. It's multifaceted, right? There's the mental health. There's The housing, there's a support. There's a lot of factors there. Education is another vital and huge, huge. Most of the guys I met 23 years had a sixth grade education. Wow. Let me share a story with you real quick. Yeah. When I first got the Corcoran in 1997 there was a white guy nlr Nazi low writer. swastika right on shrieking for it. And a black guy from Compton. I think I don't know what he was called crip whatever he was, but he's one of those Compton blood one of those Crips, whatever it was, he's a gangbanger. And when I saw these two guys, they were stabbing each other at Corcoran on the yard over a table territory, right. 15 years later, here I am in San Quentin sidda. Myself got the headphones on and watching the news. And there's these two guys on the tear right in front of myself. And I have the hair headphones on so I can't hear him but I see the body language and they're arguing they're going back and forth. And I read and it was the same two guys. Like oh shit, one of these guys didn't get thrown off the tour. So I take my head off. And they're arguing about the differences in philosophy, philosophy between Aristotle and Plato. And it gives you a bad picture of that scene. So, as what I'm speaking to there, is it education is all encompassing. It's spiritual, it's emotional. It's just it's, it's, it's ascending in a way. I mean, these guys had sixth grade education back in the day, and now they're in the prison University project, the college program, and they're learning about Aristotle, Plato critical thinking, the ability to clearly articulate and formulate your thoughts in a way, which then also leads to when you're going to the self help programs helps you to understand your own behavior and gain insights. So, if you can see there's just a multitude of layers to rehabilitation. It's not one factor. It's a multitude of factors. And frankly, they're all equal. Important mental health is right there. Because if your mental health is not right, you can't capture the education. And the insight that comes from that.

Pete Turner  29:12  
When we look at the institution as a whole, are we putting too many people in prison that could be rehabilitating on the you know, like, you know, restorative justice or any one of these other programs where Wow, yeah.

Ron Self  29:25  
So for some people, my feeling, I will say, opinion, everybody's got opinions, my feeling my observations are, I'll use myself as an example. I needed to be captives or speak, right, I needed to be locked in a cell and forced to look at myself and people in society, it's easy to be distracted with everything that's going on in day to day life, and just never look in the rearview mirror. Just moving forward. Society offers or prison offers people whether they like it or not an opportunity to just chill the hell out A second and be forced to look at yourself. Having said that, looking at the burden that's placed on society and the recidivism rate. Yeah, I think there, there could be some alternative sentencing programs, just like that the veterans court now where you're mandated to go to certain groups and take certain programs to learn anything. But the incentive is not quite as high when you're actually having to work your way out of a situation that you put yourself in. I went through the marine veteran diversion court, and this is how bad the Marine Corps was. In my era. When I went through, they had no earthly clue what to do with me. The da did not want to offer diversion.

Pete Turner  30:40  
They wanted to make an example out of me for some reason, and ultimately, the whole thing was a stupid waste of everybody's time. I didn't need to go to prison. I hadn't really even done anything wrong up but that said, I did end up in jail. But they gave me that they didn't know what to do. So the day that They gave me my you know, like, but we agreed on what I was going to do because I wasn't guilty for anything we did veteran diversion. They said, you know, gave me the standard, like, you have to do six months of this six months of that six months, you know, these all these requirements. And it had to do with things like alcohol treatment, I might go, you know, I don't have an alcohol problem. So I'm going to go, Hey, this is Pete Turner from lions rock productions, we create podcasts around here. And if you your brand or your company want to figure out how to do a podcast, just talk to me, I'll give you the advice on the right gear, the best plan and show you how to take a podcast that makes sense for you. That's sustainable, that's scalable and fun. Hit me up at Pete at breakdown, show calm, let me help I want to hear about it. And it had to do with things like alcohol treatment, I might go you know, I don't have an alcohol problem. So I'm going to go and for anybody who's ever gone to a meeting, if you're not an alcoholic and you go to a meeting, all you do is distract that whole group because now they're convinced You know, so I was, I had to work through this thing. And then the other thing was there was not a veteran in the room, nobody else to represent me. And then I kept trying to prove that I complied with the court's order. But it was so abnormal to them. I, I didn't trust them to get it right. Like, Oh, just mail it in, it'll be fine. And I'm like, at the hell I will. You know, they told me to call my parole officer, but I wasn't on parole. And so I'm like, I'll comply. I call my parole officer, like, quit calling me you're not on parole, and I'm like, I'm required to call you, you know, so this whole thing was broke. So I go in on my last day, you know, and I go there. My I have no court appointed attorney. They don't know why I'm there. The judge starts with you didn't comply with our order. And I gave her my entire, you know, psych profile that the va va had built for me up through all of my PTSD counseling. And she's like, oh, okay, you have been doing this stuff. Oh, okay. Yeah, this is all fine. Why are you here? I'm Mike. You know, I, by the way, I can still nobody from the veteran side representing me for the county, like just no ability to do that. I was lucky that I didn't look like, you know, a problem. I looked like a lawyer when I went there. And so I was able to go through this, but look at the care that it took on my end to ensure that because the I was there in court, with guys going, I don't know what happened. I turned my paperwork in and maybe they're lying, but I didn't want that to be me. So I went through extraordinary steps. But I was also finally mentally well enough to do all that stuff. I easily could have failed at that process. Ron and being in jail for no reason at all.

Ron Self  33:40  
Brother, many do. Yeah. Many don't have the ability to do just what you explained. They think, you know, they get distracted. Whatever the reasons are. Many just don't have the ability to do that. And they end up in prison, or county jails and county jails. Let me tell you county jails is not thousand times worse than prison?

Pete Turner  34:03  
Yeah, it's, it's crazy. So let's talk a little bit about the system because the other thing I know from from my very brief times in jail not counting Mexico. The treatment that you get as a person is often I will say at least dismissive of your existence, if not inhumane, you know, where were they? And granted, the correction officers job is hard and everything else, but one person can decide that they don't care at all about your thing. And then you just sit there and you wait, and you wait and you wait, you wait, you know, or they do something negative or I don't know. There are so many things that can inhibit someone's progress because of the inhumanity in the prison system.

Ron Self  34:49  
Absolutely. No, do not have that, though. Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's scary. How somebody with less than a half High school education or a GED can have so much power over people. And the thing that's significant about what you just mentioned, is people don't realize how people in authority like that plant a seed that creates at a subconscious level a distrust for authority, which in turn adds to the recidivism rate. Because then when these people get out, and they get approached or have to deal with any authority, they don't want to, or they run from it, which causes more problems. So yeah, you're spot on there. The people with the keys absolutely have to be better educated, better qualified to be holding those keys. It's okay that the director of corrections has all these ideas and support to things but if the guy on the ground the correction officer, or the jailer is the frontline dealing with you, is insensitive and overwhelmed by their own issues. That's just it's a disaster. It's a recipe for disaster.

Pete Turner  35:58  
Yeah, let's let's spend a Little bit in this space and and I am we're going to be critical right now of the correction system because it can take it. They can, they can handle this. When we were building the prison Chronicles, I tried to find people from the correction side of things to talk to me to include their public affairs officers. And I have to say, either they're cowards, you know, or Fuck, I don't know, why wouldn't they talk to me and I had people directly say, No way in hell. I go on the record talking about what I do for a living and I'm not, I'm not calling them individually cowards but as an institution. They are terrified of their own reality.

Ron Self  36:39  
Oh, yeah. I, I deal with that on a Yeah, I deal with that regularly. In fact, I gotta say, having said that, and you're I agree. 100% By the way, what you just said, there is a there's a person who I believe to a large degree will talk to people as names intended. Robinson, and he's the Public Information Officer at San Quentin Prison is the most, I think, honest, forthcoming and genuine person that I've met in most of my time in prison, he has a heart. And he walks in there a very difficult line. Because when you're an employee of the state, you're unfortunately in two categories. You're an inmate lover, or you're an inmate hater. Hmm. And where do you want to fall into that role? Right? Yeah. I Yeah, probably get from. Yeah. Looking to say what I'd like to say about a couple I could think of right now. Right. So I'll just talk about the one that I like. Okay. Lucena Robinson, and he's a genuine human being and I think he would talk to you to a degree because the direction that CDC is going right now I think it's commendable that they reach out to people like me to not and other people are allowing us to go back in and do this work. Because they get it they see that this is peer to peer. Who better to help these guys and guys that have been in the shoes guys like you and me. Just like a military guy. The best for a military guy to help a military guy. Yeah, Public Information Officers are difficult.

Pete Turner  38:27  
Yeah, well, and they're not be. Yeah, go ahead.

Ron Self  38:31  
To be fair, you know, and I want to be transparent. Right. They have a difficult job. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And,

Pete Turner  38:39  
and I totally agree, and I want to make sure I do definitely say that, like, when I am critical of these guys, it's because I expect a lot from them. And they have an incredibly different There

Ron Self  38:47  
you go, you know.

Pete Turner  38:49  
So, and I don't know how I don't know that I would act differently. I don't know how someone who actually works on the block who can can avoid The their form of PTSD, you know, like you can't be soft, you have to be firm, you have to be the same. They're almost like drill sergeants, except for way higher costs personally, you know, day to day and people that actually would harm you if you slip or get too nice or whatever it is, it's, I am. I am very understanding of that aspect of it. However, you know, we can't, we can't have one person undermine an entire system. I want to get back to the bigger picture, though. You visit a lot of prisons. I know that St. Quentin has more aid programs and all the rest of them basically combined, but how is it at the other places like Corcoran susanville all these other places?

Ron Self  39:42  
So outlying prisons are lacking no fault of their own. It's the it's the geography. Let's take San Quentin for a minute for a minute. I mean, you're a stone's throw away from Berkeley college. You know, it's the heart of the liberal movement. So San Quentin is not lacking and getting people People volunteer to come in there. Now when you get to these other outlying communities, people may care. But now it becomes an issue of geographically. Who's around how far are these people willing to travel? That's the biggest issue I've seen. It's travel and CDC is desperately trying to put together a grant program that can help programs like mine say go to Pelican Bay, it's all the way out there in Crescent City. Yeah, I can't drive there every day, once a week rather, right? I mean, it is I drive to Solano once a week, I go to CSP sac. Go to solid Ed, which is the closest one San Quentin. I spent 20 hours a week just driving to go participate an hour and a half program with some guys, right. For these outlying prisons, CDC is trying to create something where they have like a building or a hotel where people that come can stay there no cost, while they're there doing the program let's make so they're trying to figure out ways to incentivize. I'm saying that right? programming at these outlying prisons, frankly, there's just nothing out there. How do you get people to commit to go to someplace when you know, it's just too cost? It's cost prohibitive? Yeah.

Pete Turner  41:14  
Well, and again, the system can get in its own way. I know. JOHN, from his time as a private investigator would often drive to, let's say, Susan Ville prison, what you have to leave the state of California to get to. That's how far away it is. You have to leave California.

Ron Self  41:32  
The same way you have to leave California to get back into it.

Pete Turner  41:36  
So you go to these places that are that far away. If you hit there, no, like, no one's coming in today or you don't have your dd 172 dash alpha. So you can't come in. And then your next day to come in would be in two weeks Tuesday, you know, and so it's administrative Lee it becomes incredibly burdensome to To do these things and you're like, I'm doing charity today, I, I don't have to work in two weeks on Tuesday, I'll get the form. But can we do this here? And they're not equipped to do it?

Ron Self  42:12  
Yeah, I thought that it CSP sec takes me three and a half hours to get there from here. I've literally this happened to me twice. I've pulled into the parking lot and then got the email the prisons closed due to a stabbing, right. The stabbings not even on the yard that I'm at, right, I'm going to, but however, because that spot staff have to respond, sir. They lock the whole thing down. And so it's like, Ah, okay, so, you know, three and a half hour ride back home podcast.

Pete Turner  42:44  
You're welcome. So if again, as we look at this multi and this is California, where it's very progressive, you know, you go to a state that's not as progressive with their, with their prison system, you know, or they just have less resources. Rich the day who, you know, he did that. You Interview with us for your portion of the prison Chronicles. He went into all of these, that's a PhD, he went into all these prisons in Alabama, and he was studying rape and all these things that were happening in the prison and met a number of people and one of the guards that did talk to us and officially on the record, but very, very trepidatious. When she did, she said, think about my problem, I show up to work, I run a bunch of guards, and she's retired. And she said, it's six and a half hours of work for me, the moment I stepped foot in that place, just like by doing my daily work, and then every day something would happen. That would take half of my day, so I don't even get to my regular six and a half hour day. And then Hyundai comes and builds a car manufacturing plant and I lose a third of my staff. And I'm desperate to bring anybody in the door just to fill the gate. So my ability to build a team, that's something more than just eight and hit the gate guys. It's extremely compromised. So I do understand how challenging This is. Do you see similar problems in California or have they kind of figured that part out and getting quality people to stay around?

Ron Self  44:06  
Well, quality people, it's an interesting thing. There's something going on in the system that has been going on for the last few years now where the old schools retiring, the old guard, so to speak, and let's just keep it real. The Old Guard back in the day, these are knuckle draggers. These are guys that are guards that like brawl and more than the guys in Clyde like brawler. I mean, some of them came to CDC so they can brawl. Those guys are retiring. And a lot of the people that I'm seeing coming in now that I've been seeing, they're they're not about that mentality. They're genuinely pushing back on the inmate lover or inmate hater aspect or mentality. And they're, they realize the significance of just being, being human being when the judge says made a 32 life. He didn't say 30 to live plus being badgered daily by CEO who doesn't like me because I'm a veteran. came to prison. That's what the judge didn't say. And used to see a lot of that. And to some degree, you still see a lot of that. I remember when I went back to San Quentin, when they finally sent me back in, they don't like let you back into the prison. You paroled from parole from San Quentin, it took some while for me to get back in there because frankly, the person in charge that made that decision couldn't stand me because when I was there, I went over their head several times and got things accomplished. They finally let me back in staff changes, people move on. And some of the guards are that didn't like me that like made it a point to come and take my watch, because there were guards and they could, yeah, when they saw me come in, you could just see the faces turn red. Because now I'm coming in, in a suit is a civilian. And I'm working directly with headquarters and the director and their bosses. And let me tell you, some of those guys, they don't say anything but they just you could see Just I mean, no one of my to ask Are you okay? Um, you look like you're about to have a heart attack. The guy's just like, yeah. Well, yeah. mentalities mentalities have to change and they are changing. I was doubtful that I would see that type of change. But these old timers that are retiring, there's still a few around. But the reality is, you know what, it only takes one guy, one correctional officer with authority to have a lifelong negative impact on an individual.

Pete Turner  46:34  
Why? Why would they do that? What What is the purpose behind that?

Ron Self  46:41  
Behind the negativity on some people,

Pete Turner  46:44  
it's like, why would they choose that path? I mean, you know, the word correct? is in their title like your correctional officers, but you're actually doing the opposite of what you're supposed to do by making someone happy. They've already been convinced that society in life against them. And now like, you know, you don't even have an opportunity to completely undermine this person's chance to get out and, you know, get back to being a contributing member of society. Why?

Ron Self  47:11  
Well, I think that I think that just speaks to a need that I think is being implemented to a degree have a better screening process for who's allowed to wear that badge. Yeah, it's just that simple. Yeah. And well, yeah, what more can I say about that?

Pete Turner  47:31  
I don't know what else you would need to say.

Ron Self  47:34  
But yeah, it's. Yeah.

Pete Turner  47:38  
Let's talk a little bit about what's coming up. I mean, I know you're working on things Tell us about your organization. And give us a snapshot of I mean, how far into the future can we even Look, I know there's programs that often get undermined within the prison. But eventually these things tend to work out like we're not locking down as much anymore at least in California. Talk about your your your program and then talk about what you what you see coming on the Media Horizon.

Ron Self  48:03  
Well, my program I'm expanding, I received a few grants from CDC. There's more grants coming out that give us funding to do the things that driving around. It's interesting, the veteran selling Veterans Program, I am the only proven and reputable Veterans Program throughout the state of California for incarcerated veterans. There's a lot of other self help programs for the rest of the population. But VHD is the only reputable program dealing with peer to peer suicide prevention. And the whole PTSD deal that we do. That ties in directly really, with the TED talk. I did, because in the TED Talks, what I'm talking about is a boot camp out idea, a process were asked to do to build military people, just like when they join, they go to boot camp well before they leave, they separate they go to a type of boot camp out a reintegration process. That's the same thing that we're doing right now with CDC and I'm working Right now with people in Washington to get that program implemented for the United States Marine Corps and a pilot program, that would be the first one, the pilot program. And then our idea is that if all the other branches follow suit, it's important because if I can get that far upstream of the problem, before guys separate from the military, and go to the prison, or commit suicide, so I'm, you know, militarily speaking, I'm fighting on two fronts, before people leave the military, and the 6900 guys we have in the California prison system, getting to them before they get out. So that's my big goal, right? is getting to all those people. Now how I'm approaching to do that, and I got to give a big heads up to the warden Craig coning at CTF saw that what we're trying to do there is create a veteran's hub. So what would be at a veterans hub and I envision three of them northern as central and southern, CTS all that will be the southern or the central hub. And what goes on there is all the VA stuff that's available to the guys is consolidated in one spot. We have a VA compensation examiner on site, we have my PTSD program, about five to six of them going on site and entire yard of nothing but veterans that get transferred there voluntarily to get all this help and get this stuff done because they're scattered throughout the state and they don't get it. Initially, I met with Ralph D as a director corrections he said, I'm all for this, let's do this. Unfortunately, he's not completely in charge. ca v adult of division of adult institutions, which is the guys that handle the housing, they're like, Nah, we're not gonna do that. We're gonna leave that designation of that yard like it is. And that's that. So the current designation of this particular yard is called a sensitive needs. They're working to kind of convert that to a non designated programming yard so GP inmates could transfer there anyone could transfer their veteran and do this. So the powers that be below Ralph said, Now we're not going to do that. So then the guys the general putting out, prepare yourself the general population guys myself in the warden went to a couple of other yards to explain this to the guys and I went to some other prisons, and the guys on the GP line, the general population lines like I don't care if it doesn't mention, I don't care if it's x&y or whatever. Send me there. Now I want to go there. headquarters Vince says, No, we're not making any more x&y. They can't go there. So you're not going to convert the yard so we can help them and you're not going to let them transfer they're on their own so they can help themselves. Right? big WTF there. Yeah, so that's where I'm at right now. So what the word is that participant did he consolidated, he allowed guys within the prison to move around so he's actually making that veteran yard happen. But we still need the ability to let other people transfer their and this is the future for VHB and I believe CDC, our is to have these hubs, these three hubs where the 6900 veterans that are in California prison could be divided up amongst and sent to these hubs and get everything that they need to succeed when they leave. Yeah. And we're actually in the process of that now.

Pete Turner  52:20  
What, what is the rationale behind not allowing these veterans to, you know, transition to the place where they can start to work on getting out? What what's the resistance?

Ron Self  52:35  
Literally, the pinkie on the hand and the finger next to it, not knowing what the other ones doing, or frankly even carry, right. It's That's it,

Pete Turner  52:47  
is this a union problem?

Ron Self  52:50  
I think it's a union problem. And so this I found out also, the California Department of Corrections like the Veterans Administration is actually not organization. They fall under the same umbrella, right? But they have divisions. So you have the Mental Health Division, you have the director of adult institutions, and then you have the two or three different divisions. I mean, there's more associate wardens and Captain than the Pope has prayers on Easter Sunday. It's just It's crazy. Yeah, it's ridiculous. I mean, they have a $12 billion a year budget, and they can't get out of their own way. Right. Part of the problem with CDC is they're a reactionary organization and partly rightfully so. I mean, they deal with riots, we deal with this stuff that goes on all the time. And so when they have the Willy Wonka ticket, so to speak, right there in front of them, they're just they're too busy cleaning up their other irrational decisions to look at the one that's going to help.

Pete Turner  53:51  
I don't know if you know this, but that's really frustrating.

Ron Self  53:54  
Oh, yeah. Hey, babe, my shoes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We've been chasing a contract. tract to expand the transitional housing for 18 months now. And we can Oh yeah, we love it. We got a $1.5 million capital grant VTC did to expand the formerly incarcerated veteran housing $1.5 million. It built those out, built those, those condominiums out half the rooms there, they're ready and they're empty. They've been empty for four months now, because CDC won't pony up to pay for the programming. Now, this COVID-19 virus comes along Yeah, you know, now all of a sudden we get a comment we got a an email yesterday from Sacramento saying please bed we need we need to house people because they want to release the elderly before they get sick, the elderly before I get sick. So it's like really it takes a national crisis for you to do what you should have been doing all along. Okay, that just kind of makes sense, unfortunately. But yeah, we're gonna go ahead and bid on that. This is what it takes.

Pete Turner  55:04  
Yeah, that's uh you know, again, is this in any way is this this is not just the veteran population of the imprisoned this is this is all of the systems are like this where there's there's your version who's focused on gangs or whatever. Everybody has these kind of organizational hurdles to get through Is that right?

Ron Self  55:25  
Well, the general population when it comes to transitional housing, there's a company called Gio, and they have a monopoly on transitional housing. When they started letting lifers out of prison, they came into play. And they stockpile people it's just like prison only out of prison. You have to count just like you do in prison. You have to stand up and say your CDC number, which I mean, there's a lot of stuff that goes on there that is not rehabilitative. It's actually harming people and adds to the recidivism rate. And they stockpile they might put 24 people in a room that's big enough for 10 Because they're paid

Pete Turner  56:00  
by by head by headcount

Ron Self  56:04  
they're paid by the state so that you know they have the multi you know, million dollar a year contracts to house people

Pete Turner  56:10  
and these are not people in prison.

Ron Self  56:13  
Now these are people that are rolling so they paroled from prison basically to prison. Right only it's a prison on the street. You have a curfew, yeah. This your that your mandatory programs you have to go to during the day, which inhibits your ability to move forward and reintegrate into society. It's a for profit. Let's face it, Gio is a for profit. That's all they care about is their profit and their numbers. They were directed actually by CDC to have the best Transition Center bid for beds. And so they told BTC to go ahead and do a bid and then they rejected the bid.

Pete Turner  56:49  
Okay. Yeah.

Ron Self  56:53  
Because they don't want to give out any money. Now because of this COVID virus thing going on. People are jumping through hoops real No, hey, we got to get some people out of prison, we got some elderly, that are going to be compromised if we don't get them out of prison. And that's where we stand now,

Pete Turner  57:08  
if you could, as you know, whatever, the chief of all prisons in California, if you could change one thing and not just in the veteran side of things, just one thing will be the one dial you would turn to fix that problem. Like what what would it be?

Ron Self  57:29  
The latitude that the parole boards have on granting parole? Does that make sense?

Pete Turner  57:38  
No, no, I don't understand what would help me understand that more.

Ron Self  57:43  
Okay, so what? So for? Again, we're talking about lifers, I think because they're the ones that are or are not getting out of prison, right, based on a panel, right. So you go for the parole board. It's a three man or woman panel. Besides whether or not you've arrived at insight, and whether or not you should be granted parole, and determined that you're not a threat to society anymore, right between them in the governor's office, they have way too much latitude. Meaning if I get in a fight with my wife, and then that morning, and I go to the parole office to go to do my job. I've seen these guys take it out on people and give them denials just because they're in a bad mood. Yeah. Do you follow me? I do. I follow you. There needs to be CIT. Yeah. Yeah. So their ability, their needs, they need to be governed by an independent organization. So how it works now you go to the parole board, and God bless them. They've come a long way. Jennifer Schaffer someone you should talk to you because she has made monumental changes and how the board interacts but it's still flawed. So you get granted a parole, right. You're gonna you're gonna be good. You got a date. You went to the parole board, they're satisfied with you. Now you have to wait 120 to 150 For the governor's review, well, now it goes up to Sacramento. And some person that's not even the governor goes through the file and takes your data away. 90% of the time, they cite lack of insight. Now, at least six of the guys that that's happened to that I'm aware of are in the Ph. D. program, and they have incredible insight. So what was going on there? You know, I can say that as a professional, not only academically, but as someone has been in prison, and I have the experience and that's why I go work with CDC. I can say that these guys have insight who so who's the character up in Sacramento saying they don't? Yeah. And also these guys are 7080 year old guys. They're absolutely not a threat to society. Right. So the one dial I would change is that process

Pete Turner  59:48  
when I read Malcolm Gladwell, his book talking to strangers, and they talk about people who grant bail, you know, and in New York City, it's just so busy like, that's just the completely separate process. And and what we never do is we never assess that person's judgment. You know, whether it's the parole board or the governor's review person, I get why you put those things in there. But But if you're, if your default is no, and you don't even know, like, if that's a good decision or not, all of a sudden, you get like these, you know, bias problems, where like this person, like you said, they have a bad day, or whatever it is, and we don't want to put people at risk. But also, we want to have this rehabilitative form of justice where this person does learn their lesson. They do correct their behavior. And now it's time for them to get it, you know, quit paying for them to be in prison, just because someone had an argument with their significant other.

Ron Self  1:00:45  
Exactly. And let me tell you, that happens regularly. Yeah, it happens regularly with the guys in prison. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Pete Turner  1:00:57  
This is why I'm doing the present. Perfect, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is to illustrate how, look, everybody has good intention. And everybody wants the best. It's just, it's a complex system and it's hard to get everything and aligned and nudging towards the same direction. You know, because like you said, sometimes two guys are stabbing each other, you know, like in that's a real serious shit that requires a completely different set of values and responses. So it ain't easy, that's for sure.

Ron Self  1:01:27  
No, and again, I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge their making sweeping vast changes and how they deal with them. The population. Having said that, it's such a huge population. That it's, I mean, it's climbing Mount Everest, in your bare feet, with one hand, 

Pete Turner  1:01:50  
and right now Mount Everest is closed.

Ron Self  1:01:54  
There you go. Take a cue from that.

Pete Turner  1:01:57  
Well, listen, man, I appreciate you coming on. I really I mean this I said this last time we talked, recorded, I want to be more involved in what you're doing because it is important to know that there's a guy like me out there like I have done it. I'm supposed to be dead. I should have killed myself. I managed to navigate out of that stuff so far. And you know, to know that there is a future because I was convinced I had no future. I was 100% convinced. I was waiting for the trapdoor below me to open. And because I focused on that trapdoor, I kept fucking myself up. Because I lived like I had no future, but it doesn't have that way. So I appreciate you doing the hard work that you do. That ain't an easy thing to do, man.

Ron Self  1:02:39  
It definitely has its moments. Trying. Yeah, I'm fortunate that I have someone working with me Samantha Steyr. She's our operations manager. She almost quit one time we had to sit down have real heart to heart because I'm not an easy guy to deal with. But luckily she has a big soul and she wise beyond her years. And really, what she's experiencing is what it's like to work with guys that have issues like PTSD and survivor's guilt and significant trauma.

Pete Turner  1:03:11  
She's really come into divers guilt and all that stuff that you had to go through to because that's also a significant, you know?

Ron Self  1:03:19  
Yeah, yeah. You know, you know what it is? You've been there. Yeah,

Pete Turner  1:03:22  
yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know, why that guy, I literally had a guy die. And nothing had happened to him. He got killed by a concussion wave, basically, you know, maybe had some kind of congenital defect you wouldn't know about could never know about it until you're dead. And I'm sitting 10 feet from him. Maybe Maybe 40 feet. Who knows? Not far though. You know? He's dead. I'm not here. Yeah, that's great. Hey, Ron, listen, I appreciate you coming on. How do folks find you on the internet? How do they get a chance to help and read about what you're doing?

Ron Self  1:03:53  
on Facebook, we have a php page. We have an Instagram page. We have Yeah, we're out there. Just Go look up veterans healing veterans. We're out there. We're on. Like I said, we're on Facebook, Instagram. We have a web page. Veterans only veterans.org.Yeah, we're out there.

Pete Turner  1:04:12  
I will put everything in the show notes too, so everybody can look it up and see about veterans healing veterans. And, again, Hey, thanks for coming on and sharing their story. And thanks for being part of the prison Chronicles.

Ron Self  1:04:23  
Hey, thanks for providing the opportunity in the platform to let people know what's going on. With that I look forward to the future.